4 Yr. Old with Sleeping Problems & 2 Exhausted Parents--Is This Common?

If she's not napping, she needs to go to bed earlier b/c tired kids don't sleep as well. Really, she sounds exhausted!

My kiddos gave up naps at 2 years but 5pm was tough. Has she recently had strep, an ear infection or any vaccinations?

Over-tired kids, do not sleep better. In fact, over-tired kids can get more 'hyper' and then NOT be able to sleep and do not sleep well and wake more.

Your child seems over-tired or sleep deprived.

Oh my GOSH... Your child is over-tired & sleep deprived! And I respectfully & strongly disagree with the PED & teachers...kids do NOT sleep better when they don't nap - this is a common misconception. That may be true for older kids & adults but at 4, they really need their sleep. The rule is "sleep begets sleep" and "it's not logical, it's biological". AND nightwaking IS very common at this age as many kids start having nightmares at this age. The problem is, it's very hard to get them back on schedule when they are totally off like your daughter.

My older son went through this & my younger is just starting. The older knew he was scared but couldn't always say why. Sometimes he'd remember a nightmare & we could talk about it. You are bringing back memories of that total exhaustion we felt so I feel for you. I would do whatever you can to get her caught up on sleep, whether it's day or night, in the car... Is there anything you can do to get that nap back? Make it dark in her room at naptime & tell quiet stories instead of reading, etc. She can only resist sleep so much! If she really can't get the nap, then definitely get her into to bed earlier. She may or may not be ready to give up the nap but for now, she needs to catch up on sleep (and so do mom & dad!).

You may have to ride it out - she will eventually go back to sleeping through the night. Maybe in the meantime, take turns sleeping with her or assigning one parent to get up with her & reassure her so the other parent can get some sleep. I remember as we got more sleep deprived, our judgement & coping skills went downhill! Oh & I really don't think there's anything neurologically wrong with your daughter. This all seems normal to me. I sincerely feel for you...

Check ingredients in the food. Do not feed processed carbohydrates such as macaroni. Give her good fresh food veges and good protein. And plenty of fat. Good fats such as coconut oil which I use to cook with, cod liver oil just half a teaspoon each day and if you can get grass fed beef and good wild fish. Check for corn syrup, which they are changing the name of because it has such a bad reputation which it is bad. If you have honey that is fresh and raw give her just a half a teaspoon or less at night before bed. Will help her brain and her sleep and her intestines from all the sugar foods. No more sugar, please.

Didn't read all the responses but I have a three year old who's never been a great napper or sleeper at night. Granted, she's coslept with us (usually only half the night) since birth. But she does sleep in her own bed (just now she gets up in the middle of the night and comes into our room on her own!). Here's what I would think in your situation:

1. Sounds like she's giving up her nap. Designate an hour (or two) rest time where she can watch cartoons or read or play quitely in her bed with the lights off.

2. Put her to bed 1/2-1 hour earlier (to make up for the missed nap). We do this as my daughter doesn't nap on weekends. We put her to bed earlier and she still sleeps until the same time as she does when she does nap.

3. She may be having nightmares or night terrors. Imaginations run wild at her age and it doesn't necessarily mean there is something neurologically wrong with her. My daughter often wakes up (sometimes sounds like she's had a bad dream and cries out for me or the hubs, other times she never really wakes up and is still crying/upset). Sometimes we can calm her down, other times we cannot and she has to do it by herself.

Sounds like something she will outgrow, but I would try some variations on naptime, earlier bedtime, etc to see if it makes any difference.

My son went through this. It mostly happened when he was overtired. He is six now and still occasionally wakes up screaming in the middle of the night. He doesn't remember anything in the morning. When I go in to comfort him he talks gibberish and is crying and isn't aware of me being in the room. (He gave up naps when he was two no matter how hard I tried! I think his lack of naps contibuted to him becoming overtired and caused a restless sleep which caused him to wake up upset.) Ever since he was a baby he has been a difficult sleeper/napper. About a year ago we moved him and his younger brother into a room together and put in extra night lights. He also has to have the bedroom door wide open throughout the night. I think this and the combo of him just growing older and not needing the nap has helped. But, I remember some nights when he was younger and he would wake up several times in the night and would be so tired and cranky the next day.

Sounds like she's too tired to sleep well. This is a tough vicious cycle (I speak of my own and my husband's experience, when we get sleep deprived, we actually have a harder time sleeping/staying asleep)

I'm not sure how to break this cycle though.

Wow! That's exacly what was happening to my son! Couple months before he turns four he was skipping nap every couple days and yes the days he didn't nap the nights was awful, is totally normal, I kind work with whatever he was feeling, continue the nap routine and he didn't nap I laid him down early, was on and off for 2 or 3 months, the week he turns 4 was no way I can get him to nap, so took 2 weeks and he is sleeping 11 1/2 at night with no problems, I can tell he might still need a little nap in day but I make him rest watching a movie for a least one hr and he is totally fine!
He is in bed by 8 and up by 7:30 sometimes 8am
I think is totally normal and nothing neurological with her, her body need adjust from not napping to sleeping thru the night!
All my friends with kids the same age had the same experience that I have with my son!
Good luck and she is a healthy girl trying to give up naps and adjust!

You are right to be concerned about how the sleep issues cause trouble physically during the day. So many kids get diagnosed with ADD or some learning disability simply because the kid isn't getting good sleep. Have you checked the ears, nose, and throat? When my step daughter had her tonsils out her behavior changed because she was no longer snoring. If she snores go to a ear,nose,throat specialist. I don't think I'd wait for the ped neurologist. Most likely there isn't anything major and it will make you more comfortable to rule out anything major. The other thing to consider is night terrors. Sometimes kids have them for no apparent reason with no apparent trigger. They become 'afraid' to go to sleep because they know something scary may happen. Some kids have night terrors and remember nothing. Parents usually don't recognize the importance of sleep so you are already far ahead of the game.

You can try aromatherapy fragrances to soothe and relax her at bedtime. Patchouli and lavender help. (Pure Romance sells a pillow spray that I've gotten good feedback on from several parents. Not trying to sell you--check the website.)You can also buy lavender bath gels. A health food store could recommend things, too. Melatonin is safe for kids and has no side effects. Massage is also helpful- maybe a soothing backrub at bedtime. Giving up naps is a tough time, but it's unavoidable. I always had "quiet time", nap or not. White noise may help, too, day and nighttime. Good luck.

Kids need something like 10-12 hours of sleep a day. I know if my 3.5 yo misses her nap, she starts banging into things and falls more often. She also has a harder time sleeping at night, she comes in and sleeps on the bed we have for her in our room in the middle of the night. I try to get her to bed sooner if she misses her nap.
Good luck!
R.

When my daughter has a particularly tiring day (usually after a full day of kindergarten, an hour of soccer practice and a swim before dinner) she sleeps poorly. She cries, kicks, thrashes in her sleep and remembers none of it in the morning. Try to get your child to bed earlier, and maybe keep her days less rigorous in terms of activity. She will adjust after a couple of months. When my first daughter gave up her nap (at 3 years old) she would literally fall asleep in her soup! We had to adjust dinner time to 5pm so she could be in bed by 6pm to get her needed sleep. When kids are exhausted, they show it differently than adults, and night terrors have happened with both my kids after nap-free days. This is an adjustment for everyone, but it will benefit her when she goes to kindergarten, because some 5 yr olds are used to naps, and they don't get one in "real school".

I'm actually pretty surprised your PED didn't mention night terrors. They are relatively common. My son has had them since he was quite little, certainly by age 4. I also know that in my experience they seem to get worse when he is especially tired. It may well be that she is about to give up her nap, but isn't quite ready, is therefore extra tired at night, and as a result is having more night waking. For my son, he would wake up (eyes wide open) terrified. In all reality he wasn't really "awake" until a few minutes later. Then he would seem a bit confused as to why he was awake.
I obviously don't know for sure if this is what your little one is dealing with but it seems to me it's possible.
Good luck!

Check out Calms Forte for Kids. It is a chamomile based homeopathic remedy that helps take the edge off so a child can relax enough to fall asleep or back to sleep. It is natural herbs in a lactose based instantly dissolvable tablet that has the same effect as drinking a cup of chamomile tea (my kids usually take 3 tablets every 15 minutes but 1 or max 2 doses seems to help). Our family loves them for nights that we can't calm down enough to fall asleep. I have found it in Target sometimes and health food stores usually, we bought it last at the Vitamin Shoppe.

Good Luck

Well, just to add a little perspective to your situation, my 4 1/2 year old son has not slept through the night since he was born. Naturally, when he was an infant, he woke multiple times night to breastfeed, but his waking several times lasted until he was 18 months or so. But even now, when he is finally sleeping what I would call "well," he still wakes once, sometimes twice a night due to a dream, wanting me, or other unknown reasons, etc. Broken sleep is something I've learned to live with.

As for the naps, I definitely agree that lack of sleep during the day when needed can lead to a completely over-tired, over-stimulated child who has even more difficulty settling down and sleeping peacefully. My son no longer consistently naps, but on the occasions where we've been up really early, and had a busy day, if he doesn't nap that afternoon, he will definitely have a harder time sleeping that night. It truly does work the opposite than what you might think. One would think that if they are super-tired, they'll crash and sleep easily, but I definitely find that kids can be over-tired, where they just become more irritable, cranky, sloppy, and just have a harder time sleeping. So I guess I disagree with your ped and preschool teacher on that one. And I have to tell you that I've discussed this issue with other people with little ones, and they feel the same way. When their kids are over-tired, they do find that they are more clumsy, delerious, slap-happy, more hyper seeming, irritable, etc. Lack of proper sleep can definitely mess with them.

Oh, and it's totally normal at this age for them to be having nightmares/night terrors, even without scary movies, books, etc. So that could also be factoring in. My son woke up the other night, saying he had a nightmare about a fish trying to eat his hand. We had been fishing. So really, it can be the most innocent of things that cause nightmares...

I wouldn't worry too much. I'd just try to work through this end-of-napping phase to where she's getting decent sleep at night, and then see where she is as far as the other symptoms you're seeing. I'll bet that once you get this sleep thing leveled out, she'll be back to normal.

Suggestions. If he will not nap, he at least has to have an hour of quiet time resting in his bed or mat. looking at books, listening to stories on tape.. or playing very quietly with quiet toys.

Make sure he is getting 1 1/2 hours of really active play in the afternoon.

And then have a white sound machine in his room at night.

You have figured out he is over tired. His body needs rest. Just try to figure out how to make him think it is a good idea to rest his body so he can grow really tall and strong..

Do you al mark off his growth any where? He is going to hit a growing spurt soon, good time to prove to him , "resting " is a good thing..

Sounds like your daughter is having night terrors. My son gets them when he doesn't get good sleep. He was more prone to having them whenever he was transitioning out of a nap. At age 3 he gave up his naps. From age 3 -4 he would have the night terrors. Definitely give your daughter some "Quiet Time" in her room each day. If she falls asleep during that time, that's okay. If she doesn't, be sure to put her to bed about an hour earlier at night. Eventually she will totally transition out of the naps and have a more consistent schedule.

We had to do the same thing when my daughter gave up her naps at 2 1/2! I'd say it takes a few months before they really adjust to not having the midday nap.

My kids are also very sensitive to the amount of time they get with us at night. If my son doesn't get a good solid 2 hrs with my hubby at the end of the day,he will wake up at night looking for him. And the same for my daughter if I am not there at night, she will crawl into bed with me in the wee morning hours.

During those transition times I would also give my kids an all natural homeopathic called Calms Forte by Hylands Homeopathic (the same company that makes the infant teething tablets). It isn't a miracle worker, but it helps them to redevelop a good sleep pattern as they transition. Helps them to relax at night.

I would also recommend reading "Healthy Sleep Habits, Healthy Child". Gives good insight on the sleep patterns of children at all stages, including night terrors, and other things that can cause changes in a childs sleep habits. My kids are 5 and 3 and I still flip through it whenever one of my kids is having sleep issues.

I'm sorry you're going through this! It's always rough dealing with an unrested kid, especially when their lack of sleep impacts YOUR sleep!

Food for thought: does she have large tonsils? Both of my boys, 9 and 5 have sleep apnea - it's not life threatening, but it does disrupt their sleep. My younger son improved significantly after he had his tonsils and adenoids out. His tonsils were HUGE! They would obstruct his breathing when he slept and either make him snore, or he would gasp for air until he changed positions. My older son had some behavioral/focus issues related to his lack of sleep. He seems like he's getting plenty of hours, but the trouble is, every time he has a flow (oxygen) limitation, it disrupts his sleep cycle, so he is constantly being robbed of consistent and adequate REM (restful) sleep.

Then again, it may be just a phase she's going through. Good luck!

Hello!
I get Mamapedia to reach out to parents and let them know that there is professional advice out there if you would like it. Doctors are a wonderful resource and can often resolve the issue. However, when it comes to sleep, it can be a challenge for them, because often times it is not a medical issue.
You are wonderful parents to be concerned about her sleep and you are so correct in your observations - lack of sleep can lead to all things you described in your post and even more serious health and behavioral issues.
Right now, she is getting fragmented sleep because she is waking up so often in the night. Studies have shown that if you get 10 hours of fragmented sleep, it is not as good as 8 hours consolidated in adults. It is the same in children. When you get fragmented sleep, you are unable to cycle through all the various stages of sleep properly and your body and your mind does not get the rest they need.
I help parents with newborns to children up to and including age 8, so that you can all get the quality of rest you need. I would need to know more before I recommend solutions such as whether or not to eliminate the afternoon nap or not and how to resolve the nightwakings. I am confident though, that I can!
I look forward to hearign from you soon,
P.
www.sleepsense.net/kelowna
###-###-####

Sounds like night terrors, my son would wake up screaming and kicking and not recall anything the following morning. He's never been much of a napper and his Peditrician recommended I gently wake him after an hour of sleep to disrupt the sleep pattern, night terrors happen during certain stages of sleep.
Good