Behavior Help - Union City,OH

Disciplining kids with ADHD is not the same as with other kids. I highly recommend getting in with a behavioral therapist, who can guide you with more appropriate strategies and help you address the specific issues you're facing with him.

Also, is he on any medication yet? That can make a huge difference in all aspects of an ADHD child's behavior. Please give it some serious consideration, if you haven't tried it yet.

The medical specialists really can help you through these challenges. I would get the ball rolling with a behavioral therapist ASAP.

Grounding doesn't work because it isn't tied to the behavior. They don't misbehave because they are bad kids, they misbehave because they lack the ability to recall the information to make rational decisions at the time they are making them.

In other words oh look, shiny things.

The easiest thing to do is first understand why. He takes money because he has no impulse control. I always bought my kids their "needs" on payment plans. If you ask them to save it is like pure torture. So you save part, buy at that point where you know they are about to snap, and they earn and pay you the rest.

He lies because he doesn't want to disappoint you again. Swear to you, stop being disappointed, stop with the wrath of god grounding and he will stop lying. He did something wrong at school, of course he is going to lie and hope you don't find out. What happens if he tells the truth, he still gets in the same trouble, where is the upside to telling the truth? At least lying he has a chance you won't find out.

There always must be an upside to telling the truth! With me I did not punish them at all if they came to me. Whatever it was all we did was fixed it and they figured out ways to not have it happen in the future.

Believe it or not what this caused was them wanting to tell me as quickly as possible so we could fix it because they hated making mistakes. It also made it easier for them at school because I was there with them the next day saying okay, this is how I see it, this is how we think it will work, and the school was happy for the input.

Anyway I feel like I am rambling. Another good idea is figure out which one of you he gets it from. Everything I learned about herding cats I drew from what would have worked when I was a child.
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Oh my god! Don't do anything Cheryl B said!! Sorry but apparently grandma doesn't have grandkids with ADHD!! Oh you don't even want to know the things I would have pulled had she been my grandma!

You have to get the kids to want to behave the way you want! It cannot be forced because these are very clever kids that don't even know the box exists!! You will end up with a child focused on getting one over on you, with no respect for you and they will get one over on you!

Kids with ADHD are some of the biggest people pleasers, tap that, not making their childhood miserable. Please.
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Oh, if anyone would like an example, I was grounded when I was 14, can't remember for what, shocking I know, I rewired their alarm system and snuck out of the house. Crazy smart kids!!

What is he lying about and why? How are the lies "caught"? ie - are you "setting him up"? How do you know what the truth is? How is he stealing money... where is the money and why does he have access to it / unsupervised? What is his motivation for stealing money... what is he using it for?

Is this a sudden behavior change.... or has he slowly ramped up to worsening behavior?

Also - You're not using discipline, you're using punishment... the two are very different.
Discipline is a guiding/coaching technique that will involve modeling the behavior you want to see, combined with having him come up with solutions to get to the desired behavior. The consequences are natural consequences, stemming from the behavior.
Punishment is a reaction focused on the behavior you DON'T want to see and applies consequences that are not related to the offense.

How much "positive" attention does he get from each of you? Anything changed at home in the last few months... divorce, new baby, anyone dating???? Sometimes kids act out. What kind of "trouble" does he get into at school.

There are a couple different ways to deal with lying.... Lying is actually a developmental stage, and is quite *normal*...especially for kids that are bright. They just have to figure out why it's bad and have enough incentive to stop doing it.... typically by 8 they should be on the downswing of lying and be figuring out that the consequences of lying are worse than whatever he was trying to get away with or cover up.

I typically focused on the behavior and I gave my daughter virtually no chance to lie..... so instead of 'did you eat the cookie'? I said "I see you ate a cookie even though they are for after dinner. Now you can't have a cookie later".

Without knowing a bit more details it's hard to give advice. I do agree that talking to his principal or teacher may give you some additional insight.

Good Luck.

Cheryl... did you read the part of her post where her son is ADHD? Get a grip, lady.

I don't think most of this has to do with ADHD. Lots of kids with ADHD don't steal or lie. It may make it harder for him to concentrate on his grounding. I think punitive techniques are backfiring.

I think there is an emotional component - he wants attention, even negative. And he's getting plenty of it. He says things are your fault so you get called in to the principal's office and he's the center of attention. He steals money even though he's obviously going to get caught - you know how much money you have and no 8 year old has access to that kind of cash - so he's getting attention. He's stealing food even though he's not deprived of it.

I think family counseling will help you identify the issues and learn some skills for talking to him, while he can learn some skills for asking for what he wants/needs without going to the extreme of stealing.

What you're doing isn't working, so stop. Get some professional, objective help. He's suffering and he needs an advocate - that's you.

For whatever reasons, it sounds as though your son has been shutting you out of his life. I wonder if giving your communication a jump-start would help.

This brilliant book, How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk, by Faber and Mazlish, will help you connect with what's most important to your son, which could surprise even him, because children are notoriously unable to say much about feelings. He's likely to respond to your outreach positively, but may hide, or test you a bit first. If he trusts you eventually, you have a chance to find out what's driving him, and how to help him steer a happier course.

Did the old dosage of meds help him before you had to lower it? Does the new dose seem helpful? Is this the only med that might be appropriate for your son's needs?

Wishing you well.

book is abundant with real-life examples of how parents helped set the conditions for the child to address the problem himself. And though we don't usually think about young children in these terms. they can be creative problem solvers. Plus, kids are more invested in solutions they think of themselves, and are more likely to work at making them a success.

I would sit down with him and talk, talk, talk.... There is something going on with him emotionally... That he is not expressing to you or your husband. When child that young are having behavioral problems... The roots run real deep. That should be your first step... And also try working with the principle and school counselor to give him the help he needs. And ask yourself... What has changed in your home or in his life that may have brought on this new behavior ? ( it could be a new classroom environment, being picked on for having ADHA, new family member, death in the family, marital issues, divorce,etc...) children act out when drastic changes takes place in there lives. Look into that also...

Good Luck...

All you list here for extreme misbehavior is grounding, chores and standing in the corner. I don't want to recommend more because sometimes people will repsnd that they also tried ____in a SWH etc, but no one REALLY knows how consistent or how effectively doled these consequences are, or what the entire balance in the household is. Is his discipline a rare and stark contrast to an otherwise loving and secure home, or is there sort of chaos and negativity all the time including excessive discipline (and everything in between)? But generally speaking, if all he has had at 8 years old for this behavior is what you list here, that IS very lenient. Especially for a child with ADHD who may be even more difficult than most by nature. Doesn't mean they don't also benefit from firm discipline, but often people go light by advice of experts because of the diagnosis, and it quadruples the problem. One family I know is going through this. Her son has ADHD so she really doesn't discipline him with anything more than time outs (code for grounding now that he's ten-but the "grounding"is really not too long or serious), and who knows how much his problems would be reduced with firmer discipline. No one's doing it so we'll never know. I would be much firmer than this for these things with my 5 year old if he was lying or stealing. No he doesn't have a disorder, but even if he did, I would be firmer. The book Back to Basics Discipline is good and so is the show World's Strictest Parents you can see episodes free online. Seems like he needs boot camp the sooner the better!

If you HAVE been much firmer, and you just don't list it here, then stick with getting expert advice on alternative ways to deal with his problems, but follow your gut when things don't sound legit or like they will be effective for your son. ADHD does not usually cause lying and stealing, but out of control behavior can even in perfectly healthy kids. ALL kids love to lie. It is VERY hard to teach kids to go against their will, their ego, their fear, and just TELL the truth. That's why so many experts recommend not bothering and just phrasing things in ways so the kids don't have a hard moral quandry aka "setting them up to 'succeed'. It's not a good outcome based on what I have seen. They don't learn to get tough and be honest that way.

I've had this conversation with my MIL many times before, about how as long as her kids came to her they didn't get in trouble for lying etc....well, my soon-to-be ex is the hugest liar I know at 42 years old and has been his whole adult life. He'd just rather not tell the truth when there isn't someone there to let him know it's OK to lie. But yeah, he gets along OK with his mommy. So what works with some kids doesn't always stick either. You have to pick what you believe based on the lives of people who have raised ethical and kind adults. It's also best to talk to nice people you trust in person with a track record (nice adult kids) than listen to strangers on forums.

I completely agree with Jo. And I think her advice holds true for a kid without ADHD, as well.

Is is possible your home by nature is too restrictive? He's not allowed in your room? I never had that rule for my kids. And unless he's overweight, I don't see why you're restricting his food. When my kids were hungry, they were allowed to go to the kitchen and get food, so "stealing" was impossible.

How much praise and positive reinforcement is he getting? I hear a lot about discipline and punishment in your post, but nothing about anything positive. Try to put yourself in his shoes, and ask yourself how you would perform or change if you continually got punished or disciplined?

Also, have you tried asking him? By age 8, he might be able to give you an insightful answer.

I'm only going by your post, maybe you are attentive, loving parents who give him lots of positive reinforcement already. But I feel like you're too punitive. Maybe you should relax on what you consider "lying" and "stealing."

What is he getting in trouble for at school? Does the counselor at school have any suggestions?

My son is ADD...

I have done a little of Cheryl B's way and some of Jo W.'s ways with my son.

Different things worked for different ages. When he was little grounding and deprivation of privileges worked very well. There was a point, around 6/7 that I stripped his room of everything except furniture and books. He then had to earn things back. I only did that once - it was only good for one time..after that it would have been too extreme.

Anyhoo, yelling doesn't work with mine - the louder I get the more tuned out he gets. What works for me is talking to him. Explaining why lying is not working for him - i.e., the truth always comes out and then he is in trouble for the original behavior prob and the lying. But, also, talking about the original behavior problem and what the expectations are. What are exceptable behaviors for school, home, etc. Literally, once, we made a list and posted it on the fridge ( I am huge for lists on the fridge).

I also had my son help select punishments for certain actions. I let him pick what the restrictions for specific inappropriate behaviors.

And we have done family therapy. When he was about 12/13 we were having a horrible time communicating. He and I both needed to learn how to relate again.

ADD and ADHD kids are wired differently. You need to talk to his physicians and get some professional guidance on this one.

Do you discipline him with love and kindness or do you get upset and "yell" at him? Is the consequence calmly given to him after a brief discussion that includes an attempt to understand why he's doing this?

I wouldn't be concerned about what he tells the principal. Blaming someone else is the usual coping device used by children and the principal will not accept that excuse. (Some children never grow out of it still blame someone else as adults.)

Have you talked with the principal and teacher about how to handle this? They have had experience with this sort of behavior.

I would also get the family into family counseling. When a child acts out it affects the whole family and the whole family needs help.

His behaviors do not sound typical of ADHD. I hate to ask but did he experience any early life trauma? This could be real or perceived. Surgery as a baby or adoption? Anywho, in extreme cases, these behaviors, and worse, are a result of that and trauma based counseling should be sought.. But assuming this is not the case and only parenting intervention is needed, I believe the solution is the same. This voes in line with a lot of other poster's comments. Check out Love & Logic. The idea is that children act out because they are not coping well with something. They dont necessarily need you to fix it but to support them. It empowers the children to make good choices rather than bad ones by teaching them to be accountable for their own actions. Consequences rather than punishment. Natural consequences are one of the best teachers. Much more effective than a lecture or grounding. Actually, I have found that punishments like those only lead to more or worse negative behaviors. With natural consequences, the child can only blame themselves and the choice they made. For some kids, when they are punished, they focus on the "mean" parent rather than the lesson the parent is trying to teach. So they continue to make the bad choice. As a parent, we can support them through coping with the consequence of their actions by empathizing for the situation they have put themselves in. it puts you on "there side" against the behavior. "Wow, I'm sorry to hear you have Saturday detention for lying to your teacher. Hopefully, you won't lie to him/her again and miss out on .... another Saturday." This goes along with the idea of separating the behavior from the child. Don't moralize the behaviors as this underminds your child's self worth. "why are you being bad?" Children are not bad, but their choices can be. Also, I don't believe in tying our attention or lack there of to their behavior. Even when he gets into big trouble at school, still enjoy quality time with him. You may decide he isn't able to go to a birthday party because the money he stole was going to be used to buy the gift or for has to get there (or some other reason that creates a related consequence) but replace that time with a positive bonding opportunity. Even when my child, who did these behaviors to the extreme, was in the thick of natural consequences and my gut reaction based on the traditional parenting I learned from my parents was to shun her (I really didn't want to be around her I was so angry), I made a point to read to her for an hour every night. But I realized just this action of unconditional acceptance went a long way in curbing these behaviors.The reason I'm focusing on self-esteem is that the lack of could be the cause of the behaviors and definitly will be a result after all the punishments. Good self-esteem will make your child more resilient to whatever stressors that is causing these behaviors. Ideally it would help to figure what those are but sometimes its just the cycle of dealing with their poor choices.
As for the specific behaviors and how he is spiraling, rein in his world. Different from grounding. For the time being until he can show you t hrough his actions hecan make good choices, you are going to help him with that "because you love him too much to all any more bad stuff to happen." When he wants to go play outside, he can but only when you or Dad can go with him. If you are busy, because you have to clean the kitchen, he can help! And that will free up some time for you to go outside. (natural consequence)
You didn't say what specifically he does at school to get in trouble. I'll tell you what I did with my child as a last resort to her extreme avoidant behaviors because of poor choices at school getting her in BIG trouble. I knew I couldn't make her do the right thing, "save" her from this downward spiral. I had done a lot of research, as I imagine you have since you've posted your Q on here. I came across this technique. The expert talked about school being a privilege, and she had a boy who was acting out in class and refusing to do his work, both causing his teachers to spend a great deal of their time with him and not the other students. She told the boy he didn't have to go to school, but he still had to learn. If he wasn't going to learn his 3 "r"s so he can go on to college or get a job, he will have to learn some kind of work. She happened to have horse stables. This boy learned how to clean horse stalls for a few days. He couldn't wait to go back to school. The interview with the boy was most compelling and funny really, as she recalled that time and represented it again as an alternate "career" for him and his expression of "you don't expect me to do ThAT" for a living do you? Well I don't have horse poo to shovel but i decided to teach my child how to clean houses. I kept her home for 1 day. I told her she didn't have to go to school because she obviously didn't want to be there and i wasn't going to subject her teachers or classmates to her behavior anymore. It just wasn't fair to them. I must point out that I said three with a light, happy and non-punitive tone. I told her she still had to learn a trade. School is to prepare you to get a job. If she wasn't going to go to school, I was going to teach her how to clean homes. This will give her the ability to get a job in a hotel or for a maid service company. She looked at me like I had 3 heads. But went along.....for about 15 minutes. Then she got angry "You don't want me to go to school?? You want me to become a maid?? I have to go to school, its the law!" I told her, "Oh sweetie, I want you to go to school. Doing your best in school will give you opportunities get what ever job you want. But you have shown me and your teachers you don't want to go there. This is something I can teach you. Or landscaping? I can teach you how to work in the yard and you can get a job with a landscaping company." It wasn't long before she was being to go back to school. But i refused saying that it was hard to know for sure she was being honest since she has a hard time telling the truth. Then after some more being on her part, I told her if she showed me she was willing to learn what I'm trying to teach her, she will be showing me she is willing to learn what school istrying to teach her and w would try school again. I have to point out how much patience and self control it took, as i had to stay positive andencouraging the entire day so it was not a punishment but a lesson in the value of school. her attitude toward school was like night and day. She was eager to go to school, started doing well and stopped getting into trouble. Now, her eagerness has wained but to a normal level.

Sounds like he has issues other then ADHD. Behaviorally, I think their is a lot more going on. Especially his need to lie about things. Stealing sounds more like a method of control for him. As well as the food. Have you thought of taking him to a Child Psychologist/Psychiatrist?

How long has he been on medication? What Medication? It is possible that he needs to be on something else entirely. I know many people and children who have ADHD, my brother included. I can tell you that if they are on the right medication, and therapy they can do very well. This is a behavioral issue, and although it could be in regards to his ADHD, I think their is something else, behavior wise, that should be evaluated.

Instead of finding a proper punishment/discipline measure, I would discuss the reason behind the lying and stealing. If he cannot answer, definetly meeting with a Therapist would be beneficial.

I would start with the principal. Good teachers and principals don't believe everything they're told by students. Ask the principal for his/her take on this.