I am visiting my papa and step mom.
It is a little crazy-town here, as in, my dad is in late stage alcoholism and my step mom just had a heart attack. JUST had a heart attack. I am making an assumption based on symptoms (chest pain, shortness of breath, jaw pain, arm tingling, nausea) and her history of having had (many) diagnosed heart attacks.
((Deep Breaths)).
She told me not to call 9-1-1 (yes, I understand it is HIGHLY recommended) and wouldn't have me drive her to the hospital. I mean, she TOLD me not to - doing so interferes with her belief system. So, I gave her aspirn, gave her a cool rag and water, and pleaded with her to at LEAST lie down and rest. I'm not to stand watch or check up on her throughout the night.
I've got to say, I'm fairly adept at maintaining self care and sanity while in crazy-town, and have learned/am learning to accept what is outside of my control, but this one is...I'm out of my league here. It's 2:00am on the mainland, at least in my state. My girlfriends are (hopefully) asleep. This one is tough. I'm having a hard time. I'm feeling pretty scared. I know my folks won't be around for ever. And also, I hope I get to have them for as long as is possible. My goal is to spend time with them. They are my family and, for all of our (many) differences, I love them.
I'm not sure what to do here. Force myself on her? Check her responsiveness every few minutes despite her very clear direction to treat it like it didn't happen? Respect their wishes and give them space to make their own (researched and conscious) choices about their health. That's the thing, they are studied and determined. This is a choice, not an accident; They do not want to be in a doctor's care for this and a few other conditions including my dad's stroke, etc.)
Honestly, the questions I just asked are silly. I don't HAVE a choice here (I mean, I could choose to leave, I could choose to throw a fit, I could choose to X,Y,Z, but I can't make choices FOR them). They are my parents not my young children. I don't have authority over their decisions and they get to decide on a different path than I am on. 5 more days here. My goal is to spend time and to SEE their hearts and open mine. Life is short.
Maybe I'm overlooking something. Feel free to enlighten me if you see something I am missing. Otherwise, thanks for listening.
Thank you all for your timely responses. I certainly see where many of you are coming from and I found your answers helpful. Sometimes too, it's all I need to just voice my concerns out loud (or in writing w/ an audience) and then I am better able to stay calm. So thank you.
Today my Stepmom is doing okay. She's not resting as much as I'd like and she is tired. Treating her with dignity, I am encouraging her to take it easy. I will be doing the cooking around here. Darn it. STAY OUT OF THE KITCHEN!!! :) None of her wishes are new (she has a foundation in a belief system that promotes self healing through divine connection - I'm not too familiar with this since I did not grow up with it and haven't researched it extensively, but that's my understanding). My papa is not religious and his wishes come from a different place. My step mom's wishes ARE in writing (I didn't know where or to what extent - we'd only spoken of this and I didn't know what documentation she'd put together, but now I do, thanks to the suggestions you all have given.
We have been talking over details, and also my dad's. His documentation has not been put together but he *says* he will put something together today. We'll see. I have more clarity and understanding of what, how, when, they want. It helps me to not be in the dark and to have VERY clear direction as to how to respond/my responsibility in such matters.
I am okay. I can't say this is easy. Both of them are at peace with the idea of dying. For me, there is grief and mania involved, but I can put off my process for another few days and just stay present here. It's tough because, in all reality, there is a possibility each time I see them that it will be the last. Of course, that's true with all of us. But here it's more likely and real. Thank you all so much and big hugs to each of you.
No suggestions, Ephie. Just sending you strength and prayers. Good luck, dear lady.
What Riley said. Call 911, let the EMTs look her over and let her sign a refusal if she doesn't want treated. God forbid she die and you have official type people asking you why you didn't call!
Ephie honey... call 911.
People who have just suffered major physical trauma often refuse medical treatment. That's (literally) drop dead normal. It's a brain thing. Something most people would never do in a week or two, or the day before. And why people sign DNRs when they're lucid, and are only allowed to sign them when they're lucid. This is when you ignore someone's wishes, and give them the opportunity to hate you... so they can make the decision in their right mind.
If she doesn't want medical attention... she needs to sign a DNR and No Extraordinary Measures, Health directive...
Period. She doesn't want you to call, she has to have one in place. That's your deal. She has to make her wishes known when she is legally competant to do so. Meaning NOT just following a traumatic event. So call.
And heart attacks often have "aftershocks". The first one isn't the dangerous one. It's the one that follows it a couple hours later when your system is all screwed up.
Ephie love... take the responsibility OFF your shoulders, and let the 911 operator or EMTs make the decision on whether she's competent enough to refuse medical treatment.
Tell the operator you think your SM just had ANOTHER heart attack, and is trying to keep you from calling 911 / refusing to go to the hospital.
You are in a tough situation, so sorry. I can understand there are extenuating circumstances to doing "what you feel is right", and respecting their wishes is obviously what THEY want, but is that in their best interest, maybe not.
If they don't have it, they need an ADVANCED HEALTH CARE DIRECTIVE, or durable medical power of attorney, LIVING WILL. This is not a "will" designating possessions. It is what to do in a life threatening situation where they may not recover, designating who can make medical decisions for them in case they are incapacitated!
People can choose not to seek medical help, but if they have an Advance directive, stating, "no rescusitation, no life supportive measures, no feeding tubes, etc", then if a health care provider or lay person not knowing their wishes, arrives on the scene, recognizes an emergency, then emergency measures should / would be expected. IF they do have a health care directive, it should be posted where available to others, or carried with them and on file at local hospital or healthcare facility......not in a safe deposit box, where it is inaccessible.
As a nurse, we have to ask if patients have health care directives, and half the time, they are in a "safe deposit box" and no one knows what it says, so they become "at the mercy of the healtcare provider", because if it isn't in writing and available, we have to carry out emergency procedures. You might look into your state laws to see how this is covered.
Some medical decisions, not to seek treatment as in the case of your parents, puts you in an awkward position, darned if you do, darned if you don't. Not all people die of heart attacks, they often become INVALIDS, then someone has to be responsible for taking care of them. By not seeking treatment for her symptoms, irreversible damage could be happening, that could otherwise be helped.
Not sure that is any help, but I certainly "feel" for you!
my heart goes out to you! Prayers & thoughts....& I love the other responses. Godspeed....
I cant blame your stepmom for not wanting to go to the ER and get poked and prodded for the next 24 hours, she's not into it.
It took me two hours to talk my stepdad into letting the ambulance come and get him.... and he never got to come back home after that.... and that was why he didnt want to go to the hospital in the first place. His last weeks were miserable at the hospital during kidney and liver failure. I struggle with making him go when he could have just died right there in his recliner watching TV like he wanted to.
I'd just listen to your parents and let them do it their way.
Learn from this, so you don't put your own kids through the same dilemma one day.
Hope the rest of your visit turns out okay.
Make a point to talk to them about what they REALLY want, and what part they want you to ultimately play in all of this. Once you are clear on that, it's easier to deal with.
Hi Ephie,
That would be freaky for someone in front of you to have a HEART ATTACK and not be able to call 911 or go to the ER?! WTH are you supposed to do you ask...go with her wishes hon. That's what she wants. However, you're allowed to periodically check on her and get her water or whatever she might need...more aspirin. Since becoming parents, we have these little switches that go on and when something is wrong WE FIX IT! Hang in there, this one is out of your control. That would frustrate the heck out of me :) Hugs
I think you need to respect her wishes if she is rational. I know a lot of people don't believe that ignorning heart symptoms is rational. But you say it's part of her belief system. If she has had this belief system for a long time, she's considered all the options.
I am entirely over doctors and really hope that I have the strength and will be close enough to God to never go to one again. I'm not opposed to being patched up after an accident. But beyond that, I have no desire to treat a big condition with medicine. I hope my family will respect that if the occasion arises.
Ephie, I am sorry you are going through this. I just saw this, and though I am not a lawyer, I really do think that you need to think about yourself a little here.
By not calling 911 and at least allowing the EMT's to at least assess her, you could possibly be held liable for not trying to get her help. She can always say no to the EMT's, sign a letter saying that she is not accepting help, and you would be legally off the hook.
I am so sorry. It's hours later and I wonder how you are. Please update.
Dawn
Call 9-1-1 and let them sort it out.
If she dies and you didn't call, not only will you have the authorities to answer to, you'll also feel pretty guilty. Possibly for the rest of your life.
It does not sound like she's in her right mind. Get her help before permanent cardiac damage occurs.
Oh, my dear. I sat with my Dad in the hospital and my Mom in a nursing home, as they passed with their wishes for limited care observed. The guilt others might feel for not doing more was not an issue for me, because their wishes were made when they were healthy enough to decide and then put in writing, which I carried with me through their last years. I wish you clarity and strength. I know you are loved and are loving. Peace.
Even if you call 911 and they are awake and can talk they can be checked out and they THEMSELVES can refuse to go in the ambulance to the doctor. I would tell them that you feel uncaring and uncertain about the law (they do not want you accused of negligence or even manslaughter, not sure if this applies, but it might be a good threat) and get them to see a doctor this AM or call 911 and explain your dilemma to the operator. At least then your case is on tape with the police, that you tried and they refused. That is what I would do. Hope all went well through the night.
You need to have a talk with them about writing down a power of attorney for healthcare and a dnr and even if you print them off the internet and fill them ou and sign them in front of a notory so they are legal. Make sure the local paramedics and their doctor has a copy. As long as they are able to make their own decisions and they are not basee from depression and truly are their belief system then honor them. If they are out of depression or financial instead then it is more suicidal noncare then a belief system. I am unsure of a religion that prohibits a doctor or hospital help at all but allows for the use of aspirin(this is a medical intervention). If they seem of sound mind just be there and visit with them. Tell them you will help them if they wish it otherwise it sounds as if your hands are tied.
Oh, you *are* in between a rock and a hard place. I think all your insights are great. There really *isn't* much you can do. The only thing I would add--and maybe you've done this already--is to make sure you tell them what a tough position they've put you in. And I don't mean that you should try to change they're minds or anything, but they may not have thought about how it feels to be you. Even if it doesn't change anyone's actions (not drastically anyway) it might change your feelings what happens to know that they have heard you out and can sympathize with you. Tell them that you know you'll lose them someday, but that you're scared about it (totally normal!). A group hug may be in order. ;) Best of luck.
Ephie:
While I really want to respect someone's wishes - i would call 9-1-1. Let them sort it out.
The fact is if she dies while you are there and there was something you could have done to prevent it - then you will feel guilt like no other for the rest of your life and that's NOT fair to you.
When you say Mainland - i'm assuming you are on an island off Pugent Sound or in Hawaii....if we were personal friends, I wouldn't care if you called me at 2AM - I know when someone calls me in the middle of the night - It IS important.
So please - while you respect her beliefs, please call 9-1-1.
Thoughts and prayers coming your way!
I know I probably a little late in my answer. I would advice to call 911 regardless. I know the desire to respect wishes, however, if their was anything I could have done to prevent something from happening further, I would call. Have them look her over. If she refuses, its on her, and you did everything humanly possible to keep her alive. God be with you hun. This isn't an easy thing to go through, whatever and however things go. My thoughts are with you.
