Helping Stay Focused at School

I am an ex teacher and have worked with many such children. And all without meds. Having her tested does not mean you have to give her meds. It means you know who she is and how she learns.

I would ask the teacher to move her to a place where she can avoid distraction, give her a timer, and set her to work. And then volunteer in the class, see what is happening and supplement at home.

I would have her tested, but not by the school. Take her to the UW or somewhere like that. At least you will know how to help her. My brother started doing really badly in school when he was 15. My mom finally got him tested and it was something as simple as he is very visual. His teachers had to make a point to write down the assignments on the board so that he could see what he was to do. My son's first ped. was Dr. Wooley, she is remound in the area of learning disabilities and co wrote a book on it. She is out of the Mercer Island Ped Assoc so left the Ped side to focus on the learning disabilities. She was mostly trying to help kids without meds. Meds was a last resort when all else failed. By having her tested to see if there is anything, it may force her teachers to do things a little differently. meds are for sever cases or as a last resort.

Hi J.,

When my daughter was about 9 we started having her tested through the school district for learning disabilities because of the exact same thing you mentioned. They couldn't find anything wrong and she tested at a normal level for learning and IQ. I also took her to the eye doctor, the ear doctor and had her see a counselor to see if there was some other issue going on. Nothing. She's now almost 13 and is still very scatter brained, which is not ADD or ADHD. Her doctor was very hesitant to have her tested for something like that because it's so overly diagnosed and the usual remedy is to pop a pill. Since we can find no medical reason for her to be all over the place mentally, we just have to accept that that is how she is.

When I need her to focus, I have her look me in the eye and repeat back what I said when I think she isn't listening. And 95% of the time she's heard every word I said. I don't know if it's a girl thing because we're wired differently than men and seem to be able to multi-task, but my 2 sons are nothing like her in this way. When my daughter took the WASL (the Washington State mandatory test) she failed the math and passed the reading, which is the opposite of how she does in school. Maybe your daughter is the type of child who does do best under pressure. I know as an adult I'm the same way. It's not always the ideal way to handle things, but if that works for your daughter, why not go with it? I'm sure in time she will adjust and find new ways to focus. Is it possible she's starting puberty? My daughter started puberty just as she turned 12, so I'm sure hormones can have a lot to do with it too.

I wish I had some advice about some special thing I tried, but really it was just coming to the understanding of how she operates and working with her. Good luck!

You proably should have her tested, just so you can be as informed as you can be. A friend of mine had some simular issues with her 1st grade daughter and at the end of the last school year her teacher suggested that she be tested. Fortunately, she was referred to a doctor and occupational therapist that found something totaly different than ADD or ADHD. Her daughters issues at school all started when she was a baby. She went right from sitting to walking (no crawling). Also, her daughter was not put on her tummy much and come to find out that all that is extremely important for the development of tons of things (vision, focusing, muscle stength, etc.) They are still working h*** o* it...doing exercises and going to the occupational therapist and with a lot of work this can be taken care of. PARTENTS....IT IS CRUCIAL THAT YOUR BABIES GET DAILY TUMMY TIME AND CRAWL OR IT CAN MANIFEST ITSELF LATER ON WHEN THEY GET INTO SCHOOL. I always heard that those things were important, but I never really knew why......now I do.

Sometimes it is WAY too easy to attribute problems with focusing on some fault of the child rather than ask the crucial questions about the ENVIRONMENT and how we can shape the environment to suit the child and maximize success. Where in the room does your daughter sit? Is the classroom overcrowded, especially with disruptive students? Does anyone in that class get individual attention? IF so, who? Is she just given boring "busywork" when she is finished with regular classwork? Is she just flatly bored so is filling up her need for stimulation by "socializing" when she is supposed to be doing something else? I say these things as a homeschooling Mom who definitely has a daughter about the same age who would DROWN in a public school with so many distractions and who requires intensive one on one instruction. With these modifications, she is comfortably working at a fifth grade level at age 9 and more importantly, loves learning and has kept confidence in herself. I have two daugthers, the nine year old and a four year old and plan to homeschool them both through high school.

Good Luck,

H.

Hello, get her tested, what are you afraid of? If she is found to be ADD then you will know and get the appropriate help for her, this is about her isn't it? My son wasn't diagnosed until he was in 7th grade even though we kept asking the teachers who felt he was just fine since he didn't disrupt the class. He is now in high school and continues to struggle but is doing better. If you can have the school test her great, otherwise maybe your insurance can cover the cost, it is quite expensive. All I can say is do what is best for your daughter so she can succeed. If she has ADD then you can look at ways to help her that might not include medication or use natural herbs.

Good luck.

As I read your story I can still hear my mom's voice in my head.. "Jessi back on task" I swear that is all I heard 2-4 grades. I had timers for homework as well. My grades were fine but just like your daughter, my mind wandered during math. My 3rd grade teacher started to put my desk close (not next to her, that was for the naughty kid) but close enough that the teacher could notice if I was "wandering" and would wisper "back on task Jessi".. I didn't need meds or herbs, I just needed a kind word from the teacher. I graduated from a very tough private highschool with a respectible 3.5 GPA (out of 100 kids I was in the bottom % since there were a dozen or so that had over a 4.0 GPA..ugh)
My parents and myself just had to come to the acceptence that I was and am not very good at math. My strenths come in other forms. My parents let me participate in gymnastics. That tought me to focus and concentrate. I discovered that I liked to coach the little kids and eventually I wanted to become a teacher in the future. Maybe there is an activity that she could participate in (art classes, soccer, sailing, swimming etc) that she could learn how to focus.

Sounds like your daughter just needs to gently hear her mom and teacher in her head saying "stay on task". But if the teacher is unwilling to do this.. maybe you should consider talking to the principal about which teacher could help with this.
But what ever you do.. definatly go with your gut feeling and don't put her on meds.
Have a fantastic day :-)

An ADHD child can stay focused on things IF it interests them. My stepson has severe ADHD and my youngest daughter (same dad) has it as well. My stepson loves to read and he could play video games for hours on end but homework had to be broken down into small increments and he couldn't stay focused in class if we paid him, there was just too many things for him to get distracted by. When we read we typically get absorbed by the storyline and that is why ADHD kids can read forever but only stay focused on their chores for 5 minutes. My daughter isn't so much on the hyperactive side of things but definitely has attention issues.

I have 4 boys ranging from 15 1/2 to 11 months. My oldest is ADHD. We had him tested in 3rd grade. I was always under the impression that if he could sit and watch TV and play video games that there was no way he could be ADHD. He also loves to read and write. His biggest issue at that age was he would his work enough to get it done but was never to his potential. He was up in his seat and talking all the time. This might be where girls and boys differ. Girls tend toi be more ADD then ADHD.
I am assuming that she is in 5th grade, if that is the cxase 5th grade is the hardest, at least it was for my 2. Expectations all of the sudden change the kids are being prepared for middle school and actually I have found 5th grade to be harder than 6th. Also at this age puberty is on the start wich plays a role in focus. If you are not ready to do meds yet or even test for the disorder than try fish oil. This really helps especially for those children who kind of linger on the scale of ADD/ADHD. They have great supplements for children. The purer the better. the more filtered the better. We use DHA Junior by Nordic Naturals. We found ours at a chiropractic office. Adjustments of a chiro have also helped.

Hope this helps,

R.

Hi J.,
I am a children's yoga and meditation tutor. I give children tools to help balance ADD related symptoms. Yoga and meditation help promote mental clarity, consistency and the focus needed for children to succeed both in school and everyday activities. Often times children with executive functioning difficulties get negative feedback from those around them, which causes them to exhibit emotional shutdown around school performance etc...Yoga and meditation also helps with social emotional balancing. Please let me know if I can be of further help to your daughter and your family. I am available to do private and group tutoring and parenting classes.

Thanks,
T. Cushnir
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Hi J.,
I just received the same information from my daughter's teacher. I've been doing some reading about children with ADD and ADHD and just kids that have a hard time focusing at school. Scientists are finding that vitamins and antioxidants are very helpful in maintaining the pathways in the biochemistry our bodies to help balance concentration and distraction. I've started my daughter the Isotonix Spectrum line of children's vitamins. These vitamins are in powder form, dissoved in water. I have her on the daily multivitamin and OPC-3. The OPC-3 is the antioxidant with grade seed extract, red wine extract, bilberry extract and pine bark extract. These antioxidants take care of free radicals in the body, help Vit C and E to be more effective and it is great for the blood.

I've read many testimonials on how OPC-3 and Vit B complex have helped kids to focus both at school and at home. I won't put any of those on here, but I can send some to you if you are interested in reading about how supplements are helping kids at school. Here is the link to the children's line of vitamins is you want to read about their benefits, ingredients and FAQ's: http://www.marketamerica.com/kimkalin/index.cfm?action=sh...

I have also started at home, a white board, with positive comments on it for my daughter, things she can tell herself throughout the day. For example, "Math flexes my brain muscles,.. I can do anything I set my mind to,...I ask questions,.. I complete my work like a whiz,..completing my assigments feels great!" etc. We are trying to help change her mind set about school work, sometimes it can be boring, but I think mostly it gets boring if one doesn't quite understand it. Her teacher is not as structured as teachers in the past, and she thrives on structure. Her teacher is trying to instill responsibility for themselves, take control of they're environment to best work for themselves. My daughter has a hard time concentrating in an room that is not quite & controlled. She can't be catered to in every learning situation, so we are trying to help her figure it out for herself. Move to a quieter desk, I just think in 2nd grade it is a little early for her. But we are going to do our best to help her.
I wish you the best.
Kimberly

Hi J.,

My husband and 10 year old son are both classic ADD (not ADHD, there's a big difference). We were really resistant to getting our son tested, feeling that we would be pressured to medicate him. Having dealt with it his entire life, my husband's philosophy is that once you learn to manage it, rather than it managing you, it becomes a great asset and has served my husband very well in his career (software engineer who runs his own consulting firm because he truly can work on 5 projects effectively at once).

Over and over, I heard myself saying things like, "but he can work on a lego building project for 7 hours straight and forget to eat... how can this be a lack of ability to concentrate?" It truly is just part of how this affects some kids. Once my son is truly engaged in an activity, he has an extraordinary ability to focus! The problems that we were having were primarily when he was bored in school, and when he was taking timed tests. His grades were slipping and he was getting totally apathetic about school. We ended up moving him to a private school a year and a half ago, and having him tested for ADD. Sure enough, there was no doubt whatsoever. Without putting him on medication, he has made fantastic progress in his ability to keep himself organized, and after taking the state tests last year (which were timed), we just received notification this week that he was invited to join a Johns Hopkins University program for gifted youth because of his scores on the state test.

The thing with the diagnosis is that it gives you the power to advocate for what your child needs to the school. If she is diagnosed as ADD, then you have that club to wield if the school isn't making the necessary concessions.

Here's what we have done that has really made our lives easier and helped him:

At home, we have an after-school checklist... things like put your backpack and coat away, clean out lunch box, have a snack, do homework, do chores, etc. We also have a before bed checklist: put your homework in your backpack, set out clothes & shoes for tomorrow, take a shower, brush your teeth, feed the dog, etc. These lists give him a way to get himself back on track when he forgets what he's supposed to be doing, and eliminate me constantly nagging him about what he hasn't done yet. It also eliminates the frantic search for the other shoe, library book, etc. in the morning

At the beginning of this year, we sat down with his teachers and set up a method for helping him be successful. She moved his desk right to the front so that she could see whether he was spacing out or not. She makes a written list on the board of all sets of instructions, lists of materials that they need to gather, etc., because my son has a hard time remembering a long verbal list. However, she's said that it seems to be helping everyone get things done more quickly... We set up a homework planner where he writes all of his homework down, and keeps everything together in a binder with folders for each subject. Before he leaves school, the teacher checks to make sure that he has everything he needs for homework. When he gets home, he does his homework at the dining room table so that I can monitor without hovering, and I initial the list of homework when it's done and back in the binder. She also gives him as much time as he needs on tests and makes sure to send projects home if he didn't finish in class, and let us know about it. At school, we sent in a couple of little squeeze-balls so that he has something noiseless to fidget with. He's found that if he's getting distracted, this keeps his hands busy so that his brain can focus on what's being said. Above all else, we email regularly with the teacher about what is going on so that we're all on the same page. We're lucky that he has an exceptional teacher this year and even though it's breaking the bank to have him in private school, the result has really been astounding. He is so excited about school now, and I feel like the investment is going to pay off down the line.

I think the thing that has helped our son the most was after the diagnosis was made, he stopped feeling like there was something wrong with him, and that he "should" be able to focus better. Instead, now it's just the big joke that he's exactly like his dad, who he idolizes. So, when they both forget that they were supposed to be cleaning out the garage and end up playing video games together... well, they're just my lovable ADD boys :)

Good luck! Medications work well for some kids, but we just felt that it would be our very last resort. Don't let anyone push you into medicating unless you feel that it's the right decision for your child.

J.,
You didn't say how she does in school. If she is getting acceptable grades I say leave her be. If she is struggling with school I would opt for a tutor or just extra attention from you while ding her homework, but it sounds to me like you have the homework situation under control. I would do anything before having my child labeled like that with the only solution being drugs. We as Moms can do the "adjusting the diet" by ourselves and it seems like you have that under control as well if you watch her chemical intake you probably know about how she reacts to certain foods.

I think your daughter is more than likely getting bored and daydreaming...and that is ok as long as she is pulling her weight with the grades. You probably just need to have a conversation with her about paying better attention in class...I say its all normal kid stuff.

K.

Hi J.,

I'm going through the same thing with my 7 year old son. I have no answers yet, but have found some options that I am following through on. First let me say that my son can read above his grade (2nd)and can verbalize spelling words, but when it comes to writing something doesnt' connect. That is what we have figured out. He starts looking out the window, going to the bathroom, blowing his nose, looking under his desk, ect...
Some things I have found that have me thinking. First is I'm having my son tested for allergies because he is in a constant state of sounding like he has a cold. This is more and likely food/enviromental allergies and when a child is constanly not up to par, their focusing power stays down. I'm also having his eyes tested and will talk with the OD about vision therapy, which is where they train the eyes, brain and muscles to focus on objects. From what I have read this has worked wonders on children that have focusing issues.
Other than that I keep encouraging and reminding him to complete his work and this has helped to a small degree in areas.
Also, it really doesn't sound ADD/ADHD, but if you wanted to privatly (keep school out of it)seek a pediatrician that specializing in that area just to make sure, their are other routes besides medicine. I know someone who's daughter has it (mild) and controls it through diet. Their are pediatricians that encourage this. Remember just because you seek medical diagnosis, doesn't mean you have to get medicine.
Good luck to you.

I've heard good things about N.A.E.T. as well, but wonder if any kind of acupresssure/moxa=warming points would work as well to actually cure the problem. Chinese/Japanese Medicine can make fast headway with children. At least in Seattle we have a number of people who specialize in working with kids.

It's called hyperfocus and many children with ADD/ADHD have it. It often leads to children being missed because, "But they can focus on (fill-in the blank) and tune everything else out."
I am not saying your daughter is or is not ADD/ADHD but what could it hurt to do the testing?? The fact that she has high comprehension but difficulty decoding could also be a tell-tell sign. Again, I don't know your daughter; couldn't possibly know the answer. BUT, again what would it hurt to follow through???
The bottom line is finding strategies that work for your daughter and that help her become an independent learner. Gathering as much information about her as a learner can only benefit the development of those strategies.She needs to be in on these discussions with the teachers; she is old enough. She needs to take charge of her own learning with the guidance of all those adults involved. As a teacher I found the kids who had the greatest success at overcoming difficulties were those who were given the opportunity to contribute to the devlopment of the strategies.

(Okay, I just read some of the responses. DO NOT KEEP THE SCHOOL OUT OF IT!!! They are there to help your daughter. And by limiting access to information you gather you limit their ability to make informed decisions on appropriate strategies to help your daughter.Would you leave out key symptoms of an illness when going to a pediatrician for a diagnosis??? This idea that somehow teachers are out to get you/your family, to diagnos as many children as possible with ADD/ADHD is offensive and paranoid.
It sounds to me as if you have developed a working relationship based on a common desire to do best for your girl. Continue on with that relationship of trust and build upon it.)

My son had very similar problems. I had him tested (it was free with the teacher's request). What the tests picked up was a "sequencing" issue, in which he could not put things into logical order (very important for math). He could memorize things very well and had an extensive vocabulary, and he could sight read out loud perfectly but did not comprehend what he was reading. He regularly flunked written tests, but knew the material and could answer questions when asked verbally. I was told he might never be good at taking notes or copying from the blackboard.

I made a graph of daily tasks and he drew stars in when he accomplished each task (we started with stick-on stars but he was happy with drawing his own). He received a reward at the end of the week if he had a certain percentage of stars (he got to help decide what incentives he would like in advance, and they were on a sliding scale determined by the number of stars achieved). He liked having a visual reminder of his status and worked very hard to fill out the chart as quickly as he could. I put it on the fridge where he could find it easily and fill out each item when he was done.

His teachers cooperated and had charts for him to fill out at school(kept privately in his notebook or in his desk), which kept him on task and working and avoided negative confrontations and nagging. I supplied the rewards for his school work at home so the teachers did not appear to be favoring him.

In the beginning, the rewards were more frequent, then became harder to attain as he became more skilled. I kept the charts simple, so he could experience success.

He had IEPs in reading, writing, and math through the 10th grade. He graduated high school with A's and B's.

He is attending college today, and still has some difficulty with self-motivation, but he is in his second year and is determined to succeed. (Why he is taking a foreign language I will never understand -- English is hard enough for him!)

A little about me:

I was a single parent of four children; three girls, 33, 32, 28, and the boy is almost 20. I remarried in 2003 and am now a farmer in Alaska.

Janet L.

My son has ADHD and has struggled with focus for many years. He is on meds. As in your case, I have heard of kids with extreme sensitivities to many things that ultimately cause symptoms that mimick ADHD/ADD. One story in particular being a child who could not attend his local public school because of the chemicals they used to clean. In that case, his mother just had to pull him, after repreated attempts to have the school look into alternative cleaning methods. Getting tested and being treated for ADHD/ADD is a long, hard road that hopefully you will not have to deal with. It really is up to your school to modify her surroundings. Unfortunately, the public school system is not very supportive of children with focus problems, even when they are diagnosed by an M.D. Best Wishes to you and your family!

My son has focus issues also, we just started with Omega-3 Supplements as they are supposed to help with that and reading and writing skills and stuff like that. I found a supplement in the Natural Food section at Fred Meyers that are like fruit snacks (no fish taste) and my kids love them. They are also all natural.

You are doing GREAT! Any teacher that wants children tested and to be on meds, is not a good teacher. Unless of course the child is disruptive in class, is behind and struggles.
Your child is already on on IEP, what does this teacher want?
We had a teacher that wanted my son on meds in 1st grade, she stuck him in a corner with the kid that climbed the walls, then she said that his show and tell was too mature. He talked about something he learned about on OPB.
Communication is key, keep up the great work. Keep supporting your daughter.
And yes children with ADD can sit for long periods doing something that they love to do.

I have a daughter with ADD who is now applying to colleges. We decided to have her evaluated privately when she was in fifth grade. She could not be fully diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, because a large component of the diagnosis at that time was failure in school and I was not willing to let her fail before finding help. She is a VERY bright girl who also loves to read and has excellent comprehension--yes, it does sound like ADD to me...the problem of focus more often comes into play with subjects or tasks she is not as interested in...the diagnosis of girls is often missed because they do not present as behavior problems.

I chose not to involve the school in her testing and we did decide to TRY medication. She started on Concerta and has never looked back. The difference was like night and day. The analogy that I always hear used is--if she needed glasses would you not provide them?

I would highly recommend that you have her evaluated privately by a psychologist and try medication if the psychologist thinks there are ADD issues.

My daughter is now a very successful high school senior who is contemplating Ivy League schools.

Stand your ground. The teacher BETTER not recommend testing- by doing so- she obligates the school district to provide it. ( I taught for 40 years - special ed- and the teacher is playing with fire - BELEVE me)

If the school offers testing- you can agree and remember to take the results with a huge grain of salt --- by which I mean- school specialists tend to 'recommend' what the school staff want. Medications for add and adhd are wicked- . I had my son ( then 9) on them for a year - the teachers were BEGGING as he was very distractible at school-. After taking them for a year ( during which time his academic scores did not even twitch- it made NO difference to his ability to be successful in school- but it did make him easier for teachers)
At the end of that time- he said '' I don't want to take this any more ( he never took it at home---absolutely no need) - I said ''why, sweetheart?" -- he replied ''' because when I take it I don't feel real''

that was it- beg,. plead - command - the school could do what they wanted- he was OFFFFFFF the Ritalin- and back then ( 22 years ago ) that's all there was - now there's other meds' - but some of them are worse than Ritalin- you know your child- you're making excellent, informed decisions- Stand your ground.

Blessings,
J.

Have you had her tested with N.A.E.T. yet? Have you read 'The ADD Answer"? Both wil help you get rid of those symptoms naturally. Good luck!

When I was in elementary school,(way back in the dark ages) I remember my teacher putting on my report cards, needs to stay on task. I also remember day dreaming a lot. They had no diagnosis for this other than I was being naughty and not doing my work. Now, as an adult, I see me as a person who works best under pressure. I still daydream if I am not into something important to me. I think the timer idea is good. It iwill give her a deadline and a goal to work for. I'm sure I had ADD then, but nothing was done and I lived through it. My son also was a busy body in his classes. The teacher thought he might have been bored. Make her homework fun for her and hope that her teacher knows how to do the same in the classroom.

Hi J.,

I can feel for you and your daughter on addressing focusing issues! My daughter just turned 11 and she has been diagnosed with ADD. We decided to put her on meds after researching the side effects, pros and cons. It has definetly made a huge difference! I would say that don't rule out getting a least a diagnosis. It is better to know than not, as it will help deal with issues. There are other things you can do besides meds, such as, therapy, which helped some. It helped my daughter to improve on her social skills, which many ADD or ADHD kids are not at the same level as their peers. In regards to your daughter's ability to "hyper focus" on reading a book, that actually is common with ADD. If the person is really engaged they tend to be more focused than most people. My daughter has always been able to read a book for long periods of time because she really enjoys it. Also, she could sit and watch TV for hours, which I thought was strange as well. Bottom line is that I would look into seeing a specialist for ADHD and keep an open mind. My daughter has not had one side effect from the meds. She is on a very low dose and the meds act by increasing blood flow to the brain. That is all. By the way, mothers with children who have ADHD are 24 times more likely to have the condition themselves! You can guess where that leaves me...

M. Marlahan

J. -

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J.,
Teachers have a way of making us feel like we aren't doing something right, as mothers, when they bring up an issue our child has.
I have been there. I will spare you all my personal details, but it sounds like you are already doing enough. What happened to letting kids be kids? I am currently operating under the suspicion that our school system is partially to blame. Kids will daydream. Kids will lose focus. THEY ARE KIDS! Gentle reminders to stay on task is THEIR JOB as teachers.
I can understand why you don't want to have her tested or labeled. If you already are doing an IEP, there isn't much else to do for ADHD or ADD at school other than medication.
And I only think medication should be for severe cases, which it sounds like your daughter is not disruptive, so all of this long response just to tell you I think you are doing an awesome job! It sounds like you are one busy lady. Don't forget to take care of yourself, too. :)

I did not get a chance to read other responses..so I appologize if this is just a repeat. If you think that she might be ADHD, predominantly inattentive type (ADD is not the clinical term any longer), you could have her seen by a therapist for a clinical opinion...the "testing" that people refer to is basically this, 3 scales (connors, vanderbilt, etc..)-one to family, one to school, and one in another area of her life would be asked to read a list of behaviors and score how frequently they think each behavior is occurring. Each is scored and if you are scored high enough by all three than an ADHD dx is given. Things that might help....if your child is sensitive to things, is she eating foods prepared by the school? Avoiding sugars, food coloring-especially reds and yellow, foods high in carbs, foods that are packaged by companies in general. Since she has an IEP, you could ask for behavioral accomadations to be given to aid with the focus issue, just like the things that work at home for you. There are techniques that she can be taught with the help of a trained therapist to learn how to improve her focus, which couuld always be an option....good luck.

Hi J.,

I have not seen other responses. I find that some kids who have focusiing issues may have eye/issues. If she hasn't gotten her eyes checked out from an eye doctor, i would recommend that she sees one in case she needs glasses. Many kids don't know what what they are suppose to see because they don't know any better. But the signs are avoiding near work, headache. Best of luck!

I would stand my ground about testing her. I doubt she has a problem with focusing. Maybe at school she simply could be bored. If she can do her work at home under pressure and works well in that environment and can read and comprehend like you say. THen I highly doubt she has a problem. I myself work well under pressure and if given more than enough time I tend to slow down and daddle and daydream too. It might just not be challenging to her or she might not like Math all that much. Give her break. She is probably just normal!!!!