We are having some bumps in our family. In a nutshell, it seems that ever since FIL passed away (a few years ago), MIL has been demanding more time of DH -- which means that he spends less time with me or the kids. It seems that every weekend is MIL time and quite frankly, the kids are starting to resent it. When we are with MIL, she fails to engage with the kids -- asks them no questions about their lives to find out what they are up to or how things are going. She and I may only speak a few short sentences to each other as well. MIL really only wants DH and I feel like the kids and I are not really welcome anymore. She was able to pay attention to the kids when they were younger because ice cream, candy and $ were lures. Our kids are older now (pre teen and teen) and they are uncomfortable with these things even though that is all their grandma seems to know.
As a result, the kids and I have limited our contact with their grandma because they just don't want to go anymore and they go into a funk. But that doesn't seem to stop DH from seeing her so much....which means that the kids and I see him less.
I guess I am confused....because I was under the impression that our kids come first. Whatever time we have leftover as a family, we can spend with other family members. The kids are getting the short end of the stick after a busy week of school. I am doing my best to be available for them to make up for DH....but our kids know what is going on. Seems that DH resents them for not wanting to spend time with his mom and the kids resent him for putting his mom before them.
MIL is a very dependent human being and asks DH to help her with a lot of things. DH touts her as being a strong woman....but I actually see her as a cowardly and weak person. She is highly manipulative in a very convert and unassuming way. A few years back I was working with a therapist (for other reasons) but I was asked to explain all the people in my life that I associated with regularly. What I learned brought me to my knees. MIL suffers from a personality disorder and DH has been groomed his entire life to be her enabler. He is like a robot to her (golden child) and it is difficult for him to say no to her because he feels guilty. He wasn't like this when I met him and was very much removed from MIL's fog. But when FIL passed away, everything hit the fan.
I have spoken to DH quite a few times already about our situation and the conversations are circular. What I say is meaningless to him in a sense because he will defend his mother or come up with an irrelevant excuse. So I just have to swallow my shame for even speaking up.
What would you all do? I want to go forward in a healthy manner that sets a good example for our kids. The kids and I have talked a lot and I hope that helps -- and I am trying to reassure them that they are not the problem. I worry intensely that when they are adults that they are going to limit contact with their father because of what they are going through now. Sadly, when he is off on business, the kids are relieved that they don't have to see their grandma. I agree. We have done our best to make her feel welcome in our home and in our presence and it means little to her. She only wants her son.
I think that those of you who have said nothing will change by talking to your husband are absolutely correct since the times that I have spoken with him result in little validation for my feelings or the kids. When we have talked about it, I have not attacked MIL or DH. I have explained why the kids and I feel rejected.
MIL is in her mid 70s. When FIL passed away we actually went out of our way to include her more in our lives. I even picked her up at her house and brought her to some school activities. We were not trying to insinuate that by doing these things that it was the signal of a new lifestyle change for her. We were trying to take her mind off one of the most painful things a person could go through.
At the same time, yes, we have urged MIL to join some groups or participate in some activities. She says no to everything. Her friends have invited her on trips with them (girls only) and she says no because they play cards and she does not like it. She does not have to play cards to still have social time in my opinion. Playing cards is a way for them all to just talk... And MIL also plays the "I'm too old" card to excuse herself from exercising or joining fitness classes whether at an adult community center or not. So, she is bringing this on herself.
The kids have tried to bring their concerns to DH and he barks back at them to initiate conversations with MIL. The problem with this is that most kids don't just strike up conversations with adults -- am I right? And when they do speak to MIL, she makes eye contact with DH instead rather than the kids. She then pretends that she does not understand -- which I know by now is a really cunning game -- because she does indeed speak English and understands!! It is as if she is seeking approval from DH to answer the question -- and he tells her in English: (granddaughter) just asked you a question, please answer her!
Ugh.
For the poster who referenced Karma....I really don't see that as constructive at all. I lost my mother at a young age and was raised by a raging narcissist. Does that mean that because those 2 bad things happened in my life that Karma did that? I have done a lot of thinking about what it will be like when I am a MIL...and my kids and I have already talked about it. I told them that I would not behave like their grandma -- that they are not required to help me or feel guilty one bit about me EVER. If they have kids, I will respect the boundaries that they set with the kids and I will also respect the marriage and the partner's needs. If I need help with something I can pick up the phone and pay for someone to get it done for me....rather than taking up the time of my kids so that when we do spend time with each other, it is more meaningful and productive. Just because I had kids does not mean that they owe me anything when they are adults. Being happy and safe is all they should be. They get to choose how to include me, not the other way around.
As for the language thing.....let me just say that all the grandkids speak English only. It isn't just in our family that our kids did not learn another language. That makes 13 grandkids that only speak English. It was a choice that all the parents made. Personally I think that MIL is denying herself by not practicing English because there is no way she could not have known that 3 of her 4 children would marry spouses that were not of her ethnic background...and she has been a US citizen since the 60s....that's 2/3rds of her life! Poor excuse.
The counselor that I saw is one that specializes in adult survivors who were raised in abusive homes as children. I am pretty sure that she was qualified in her diagnosis of MIL. In fact, I wasn't even there to discuss MIL -- it was my own dad -- and when I started talking about MIL and how she is, I was probed further and the counselor was like....um....your MIL has some issues.....it isn't that she is an elderly lady. That was very scary to hear....and I cried a whole lot. I was devastated that I had made the mistake to allow someone like this into my life after disengaging with my own father. But how could I have known? DH didn't display any traits of enabling because FIL was alive and because DH lived on the opposite side of the country when we met. He left home for college because he needed to get out of the trap he was in and he new it. He shed those fleas before and now he has fleas again...
Yeah, DH wants to move but is scared that if we do, his sister and her husband will take advantage of MIL. In turn, it is embedded in him to respect his mom, even if she does behave poorly. He knows no other way and doesn't want to make her upset. I know he is frustrated but in reality, the kids and I are more emotionally mature to handle stuff than MIL is. DH has made some tiny strides and hopefully that will help. He denied counseling.
ETA: Why does this hit me so hard? Because it is a form of emotional abuse. DH is being abused by his own mother and in turn he abuses his own kids (and me) in a milder form. Yeah, I'd like to have a stable female mother figure in my life and it hurts that it did not turn out that way with MIL. The ball is in her court, really. When I voice my concerns, those feelings fall on semi deaf ears....so that again is a form of abuse. I don't want to live with strain in my marriage and that is why I reached out for advice. Growing up in an abusive household -- of course I am going to be on the alert for anything that may affect my marriage or my children. So, yeah, I'm trying my best to be Momma Bear. DH is in a fog and he just cannot find his way out.
I appreciate those of you who have provided constructive criticism or who have been through something similar. Feels good to know that I am not alone. Anymore helpful advice is greatly appreciated.
Type out the words to "Cats in the Cradle" and have the kids add a note that says this is where their relationship is headed. Just give him the note and move on. He'll either get it or he won't.
L.,
Whenever I find myself perseverating over someone else's negative impact on my life, I eventually realize that something is up with me. It is time to do a gut check and figure out why your MIL is looming so largely in your experience. I get she is a pain with poor boundaries but something feels over the top in your reaction and your children's reaction. Just saying.
I'm not trying to be snarky, but L., I don't really see how this question is different from the one you asked just a month ago, which most of us responded to: http://www.mamapedia.com/questions/1513053668113711105
You and your husband are on different pages when it comes to defining how much responsibility an adult child has for an aging parent. Even if we agree with you (which not everyone does), that won't change how he feels. You can't change him, you can only change your response to the situation. As I see it, your options are to accept that he feels responsible for his mom and join him in doing that (within limits), or to let him know that you are going to live your life (with your kids) as you want, without the weekly commitment regardless of what he does. You can choose either one. I know the option you WANT is to change your husband's belief system, but you've tried that and it clearly isn't going to happen. I wish you luck, and hope you can find some peace with whichever of the available options you choose.
Wait. I'm confused. YOUR therapist diagnosed your MIL with a personality disorder??? Am I understanding this correctly?
ETA** Your therapist supposedly diagnosed your MIL WITH A PERSONALITY DISORDER AND YOUR HUSBAND AS AN ENABLER BASED ON YOUR SAY SO?!?!?!? OMG, go back to counseling and either find a NEW counselor or go back to the old one and tell them that you are running around telling people (including very likely your children) that HE/SHE diagnosed people they never met with a mental illness. Get help for yourself immediately . . .
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I can't imagine a family where the children don't know the language that their own grandmother speaks (and obviously father as well). Whose idea was that? You know, there are a lot of kids in the pre-teen/teen years that have trouble connecting with grandparents. The generational gap is the largest at that point - with hardly anything in common. Your kids are not "suffering" because of this and I believe that they don't feel the disconnect - that is until you brought it to the forefront as an issue. My kids would probably whine if they have to spend that much time at gramma's house - that doesn't mean that gramma's house is bad, or that gramma isn't a good gramma. Hell, kids complain if I ask them to take out the garbage. We don't have a roundtable discussion about it WITHOUT dad!
You haven't done your best to make her feel welcome, and you know this in your heart - it comes out so clearly in all your complaining about your mother in law. I would definitely seek counseling for yourself and perhaps for the kids regarding how you are treating gramma. My guess their view of the situation is very one sided . . . your side.
Karma is a real b*tch. Be careful that when YOU are the MIL, all alone (which if you force the issue, you will be because your husband will very likely choose his mother over you if you force him to choose), that your children don't abandon you . . . isn't that the example you are trying to set?
Obviously this is somewhat of a hot button for me - I am a MIL myself, and I am currently taking care of my own mother (who still lives independently) and my own MIL may be moving near or with us shortly. I feel blessed that these women want to be close to us as they enter the later part of their lives.
How old is she? Is she getting quite elderly? I guess since you have had no luck with changing your husband, maybe try something different. Instead of him going to her house every weekend, have her come over for the afternoon/dinner every Sunday or something like that. Sit her in front of the TV...let you husband dote on her or listen to her or whatever he does...and you and the kids go about your usual activities. This will bring her in around the kids and you and the whole situation will be slightly less isolating (your husband isolating himself away from you and the kids). People with personality disorders are incredibly hard to be around, so I also don't blame you if you do not want to do this. Also - have the kids told him one on one how they feel? They need to start doing that on a regular basis so he hears it from them.
It's time for family counseling.
In my experience, some sons are very highly defensive of their mother's mental illnesses. In my family, my mom has some unresolved mental health issues which have resulted in both my sister and I having no contact after some seriously scary and bad behavior on her part. My brother is still very defensive of her, lets her take care of his kids, and still cannot 'see' what my sister and I do in her personality.
Understand that denial over many years is built strong, like a wall. That's what has helped him to hold onto having a relationship with her. This is why it benefits *all* of you, for the time being, to consider a therapeutic effort. Likely, he really can't 'hear' you and I'll be honest here-- you are probably a LOT easier for him to deal with disappointing than she is. He's picking his battles based on a sense of self-preservation that may have been ingrained in him from birth.
Understand that, by asking him to pull back from this sort of parent, you are asking him to do something scary-- confront her. Even if it is inadvertent, he likely has fear that his mom will fall apart and either turn into someone completely incapable OR attack him personally or both. Personality disorders mean that predictable behavior has already flown out the window and is not to be depended upon.
So again, talk together with a counselor in a loving way. Explain that you miss him. Explain that the kids feel guilty. Explain that it's not a contest between mom and family, it's that there has to be a sense of proportion. Some people go all their lives dealing with parents who have mental illness and just don't know how to really pull themselves out of it because they've always had to overcompensate-- that is 'normal' to them. A 40 or 50 year habit of pleasing mom is a hard one to stop. So, have compassion for him as well as yourself and your kids and start addressing this in a caring way, where everyone can feel heard and there is room to be vulnerable. Wish you the best on this. :)
When you talk about this with your husband, do you talk about how you and the kids are missing him and really need to be able to spend more time with him, or do you complain that he is spending too much time with his mom?
I would strongly suspect that you focus on spending time with you and the kids. You do need to spend quality time with your husband. That is necessary for a healthy marriage and is actually very important for your kids (kids benefit from parents who have a healthy marriage). Your kids need to spend time with their father. They need a healthy, male role model, and they do deserve to spend time with their father.
Focus on those relationships. If you tell him that he is spending too much time with his mother, he's not going to respond well. If you and your kids felt like you were getting enough attention, I don't think him spending time with his mom would really bother you so much. So it's really not that he spends time with his mom, it's that he spends time with her and not enough with you and the kids.
If you only talk about his mom, he is going to feel defensive. He is probably going to feel like you just don't care about her and you just don't feel like she deserves time with her son. Years from now if your husband passes away, you will definitely want to spend time with your children. You would want to them to visit you. It's not ok for him to neglect you, but it's also not ok for him to neglect his mom.
Maybe think about how much it would mean to you to have your kids give you lots of attention if you were widowed. Let him know that you respect and admire him for the son that he is. Tell him that you do need time with your husband and that your kids do need time with their father. Let him know that you want to see if the two of you can come up with a plan so that he is taking care of his mom and taking care of you and the kids. Maybe the two of you can come up with a way to make this happen.
But don't make it just about him spending too much time with his mom.
I agree with mynewnickname in the sense that you do have the choice to be helpful/participatory with MIL (although I see the problem that she ignores you & the kids), or you can do your own thing with the kids. A third choice I would add relates to the resentment you say the kids feel toward their father. That's a real problem but especially in the teen years. Kids at this age are trying to figure out who they are, and they are looking to role models to help them learn to navigate adult waters. So I would enter into some family therapy with the kids, so that they can express their concerns to an objective and qualified counselor. If your husband sees this as a problem affecting the kids, perhaps he will join in some therapy sessions as suggested by the counselor. Your kids need to be heard, and not just by you with your obvious resentment of the situation. You benefited from therapy yourself, and it helped you understand your MIL's disorder (assuming that your therapist correctly diagnosed the MIL without meeting her). So sure you can see that the kids can benefit from learning some skills to negotiate and interact with their father, feel good about who they are, and make good choices going forward. Meantime, you can work with a counselor to learn how to parent effectively in the face of this level of conflict and resentment.
What is very clear, however, is that nothing will change by your just talking to your husband. That's not working, and continuing to insist on it is just an exercise in frustration. Your kids are learning how to have a marriage and how to resolve/negotiate conflict by watching the two of you. This is an unhealthy path to be on.
I don't know about you - but if I had a person coming into my home every week and not showing much interest in me or my kids, I'd be kind of hurt.
And my momma bear would be coming out.
I think this is triggering something deeper in you. Do you feel rejected? I probably would.
I would stop focusing on your husband and his mother and figure out why this is such a big deal to you.
I had to do that. One day my mother in law walked past into the baby's room, picked him up out of the crib, never said hello - just asked me for a cup of coffee.
I went into the kitchen, hormonal, and cried. And my husband observed it.
He got it.
If you can identify why this is so problematic for you and share THAT with your husband, I think you have a chance of him caring more and being more willing to help.
Good luck :)
ETA: Read your SWH. My MIL still insults and is rude. She has a mental illness. I learned not to take it personally.
I just can't spend a lot of time with her. I think because she's not my mom, I don't have the level of interest my husband has in putting up with that. He loves her - I do not. I just try to be compassionate. But it's very much about protecting yourself.
So kids and I don't visit often. Only when kids want to and even then, we have to oversee because it's not always very healthy any more.
I would take control as much as you can - say what you're willing to do and not. If you don't enjoy having her visit in your house every weekend where you tend to feel unwanted - then suggest to hubby he visit over at her place or go out for lunch. Tell your husband what works for you - say Saturday is our day, work something out like that.
My MIL's behavior got pretty extreme so my husband had to step in. So we had counseling on how to deal with it. But the basic gist was, boundaries. Even if your husband doesn't have many with his mother - you can. You do what you are comfortable with.
And then let it go as much as you can. You don't want this becoming a bigger *thing* in your marriage and family than it has to. Come up with an arrangement and leave it to your husband. See how that goes. Good luck
Move.
Several time zones away.
Your husband is his Moms replacement husband emotionally.
She's widowed but you're the one without a husband.
She needs a life of her own and she's not going to let him have one as long as your family is with in an 8 (maybe 12) hr driving distance.
You are going to need some family/marriage therapy.
Your biggest problem is that your husband doesn't see his behavior AS a problem.
He's not going to fix anything because he doesn't think he has a problem.
I don't think you or the kids can wait until MIL passes away.
Additional:
Sounds tough!
If it's any consolation - you will out live her.
Eventually this problem will go away.
I get it. My mom will be 70 in a couple weeks. She is bi-polar and a few other mental issues going on. I have had to limit my time with her because she is unpredictable and frankly, stresses me out when I'm around her. So my conversations with her are about the weather and her boyfriend and health issues. She asks very little of her only 2 grandkids who are 16 and 13.
As far as the kids go, I would talk to them honestly since they are old enough to understand. Grandma is older and has some issues since grandpa died. So when we see her we have to be understanding and we still love her. I would keep it simple like that. I would NOT force them to go see her. Just like in a divorce, the kids are old enough now to decide who they want to see or not.
I would have a discussion with hubby and tell him the kids won't be home forever. Weekends are FAMILY time and plan some things to do as a family. Then AFTER that activity, if he wants to spend the rest of his time with his mom, I would let him. You have to realize also that she isn't going to be around forever either. Whether she is manipulative and your husband is an enabler doesn't matter...this is THEIR relationship. So it will be what it is and unless he sees it for himself, it likely won't change.
So if your big complaint is he doesn't spend enough time with you and the kids...then PLAN activities for all of you then let him go be with his mom and don't stress about it. Life is too short to be unhappy so do your thing with the kids. If they decide to not hang out with dad when they are adults, then that is the consequence your husband has to live with from the decisions he made. JMO. Good luck.
You can't.
Have you started to learn her language yet?
In some situations you need to "force" the engaging or the shift in dynamic.....run right over that boundarythat she is using to define herself and your husband as a twosome.
What are your husbands long term goals for his mother?
It can be very scary for an adult child to see their parent aging, frail, and lonely. Honestly I think you need to define what your husband sees as his role as she ages.
I also think your MIL could benefit being connected to a community of her age group or culture.
Lastly, I don't think this is about your husband as much as it is about you.
Emotions are what bond a couple. Most people marry the person that triggers emotional patterns developed with our family of origin (whomever that may be). Couples who stay together usually do so because the marriage provides a environment to work on the issues then the childhood home which leads to the person and the marriage maturing.
In other words you marry the dynamics of your family. Read Harville Hendrix. This info is all in his books.
I hope you are still therapy, and if not it's time to go back.
After your SWH:
I feel for you. I really do. It is like being stuck between a rock and a hard place.
As with all other PDs you need to detach and not engage with her. Keep communication factual, direct and emotionless. Is there a support group near you for family members of PD?
I mention the counselor so that you can have support for yourself and get a deep (detached) view point of the dynamic and how to communicate with your husband so that you empower him to have boundaries with his mother that doesn't cause an argument between the two of you.
There is phase that John Bradshaw uses which I believe: "Hockey players don't hang out with chess players...they don't know the rules". Meaning that we pick or stick with what we know, but it doesn't mean the outcome will be the same or the childhood recreated.
Give yourself a break, find a good therapist and continue to educate yourself. You are a lot stronger and smarter then I think you realize.
Remember.....your husband also chose you :-)
I don't think that you can do anything about this, and your husband will suffer the consequences of his denial of the kids when they are out of the house, especially after his mother dies and all he has left is you. I don't mean to sound bad by saying that, but it's a real possibility that this will be the sobering scenario.
Have your kids leveled with their dad in a family meeting? Have they been honest with them about their feelings? Perhaps that is what needs to happen. If THAT won't change his behavior, perhaps nothing else will.
