I Know I'm Gonna Catch Heck for This, But...

You are a brave man. Love all the answers. What I love is when we ladies go to the doctor or dentist and they're going to take an x-ray and they say - "any chance you're pregnant?" In my mind, I'm married, I'm sexually active, YES - there's always a CHANCE I'm pregnant. Am I trying to get pregnant? No, but there's always a chance. OK, my husband had a vasectomy a number of years ago so my changes of being pregnant are slim to none - but there's always a chance.

when and if I do get pregnant again I'm going to say "its about f*cking time". lol It will be more of a suprise that I am not pregnant, we have been trying for quite some time.

My daughter was on birthcontrol most of the times she got pregnant, even one time it was the patch. She has 7 children.

She had a tubal done this last time.

I guess I can understand surprise if someone has been having unprotected sex for 10+ years and hasn't gotten pregnant in that period and then in year 11 gets pregnant. That would be surprising. Likewise with failed birth control (I was certainly surprised with my pregnancies...one on the pill one with an IUD). But I'm with you. If you are under the age of 50 and having sex without using birth control, why in the world are you surprised by pregnancy. Babies happen when people have sex.

Yeah well, sometimes you have one too many and rip one off. Then you doze off and forget about it, you know?

Frankly, that's how all three of my 'precious little suprises' came about!

Giggle.

THere must be SOME way to use that coconut as a form of BC, right?

(The ladies just want to share their feelings with other ladies, you know? It's a big deal when you find out you're pregnant, whether it's a 'surprise' or not. It's a comfort to hang with the other girls who've been there)

:)

BWAHAHAHAHA!!

Who knew sex could lead to pregnancy?! SHOCKER!

Someone tell the media so they can blow it out of proportion!

;)

I got pregnant on the pill AND the patch... the 3rd time was on purpose. SEX leads to pregnancy, not (just) failed birth control!

I will tell my husband it's your fault if we never have sex again.

He had a vasectomy over a year ago, and I swear, if I got pregnant, I would be surprised. :)

Other than that, yup - not a whole heck of a lot of reasons to be 'surprised'.

Who knew one too many margaritas and no birth control at the lake was gonna land me my third kid!?!?!
Whoooopsie! I have my tubes tied now. No, I wasnt surprised, clearly I was meant to have a 3rd.
Now, if I got pregnant I would be SURPRISED! Ahhhhh!

J.:

There is fool-proof birth control - abstinence!! :)

We were "surprised" when we got pregnant with Greg - we had tried for 4 years to get pregnant and when we gave up - about 4 months later - I was sicker than a dog - went to the doctor and found out we were pregnant!

Other than that - it's not a surprise. If you have sex, unprotected, it's a possibility!!

Well...I am pregnant w/ our little surprise.
We were not using any bc. We haven't for years.
And we have struggled a lot (others have struggled more...but it was still very much a struggle) to get pregnant. We have to really work at it.

We both decided we were fine w/ having another baby.
But to be perfectly honest, I just did not think it would happen for us.
I do know my body, but I was having really wacky cycles.
So when I found out I was pregnant, when we heard that little heart beating...it was a surprise.

I knew the slim possibility was there...I just did not expect it. Surprise!

Does that make sense?

I know what you are speaking of. I am amazed how many women admit they were not using any bc for whatever reason... And find themselves pregnant.

It is also sad how many say they could not afford BC. Or the ones that say they are afraid to tell their significant other.

In this day and age, we all have to be honest. If you are not using BC and you are having sex, yes, you can end up pregnant. My husbands 50 yr old Aunt got pregnant and had a healthy child.

I do not answer those posts. There is nothing you can say to them. They did not use protection in the first place not sure what they were thinking or why they ar their partner are shocked.

You brave, brave man... smh :)

Firstly, the "coconut" comment cracked me up.

Secondly, I'm not sure how old you are, but there are ALLOT of young mothers on this site and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that allot of them didn't have a "go-to" person to ask questions about conception cause, agreed, we do get allot of "why am I pregnant when i don't use birth control but I thought I held my head in the right angle so I shouldn't be right?" questions.

I think if you look at it like no question is a dumb one. Or no experience is unique to just one person, then you'll not care how many mom's had an oopsie baby.

And what do you do with a coconut? (LEVITY PEOPLE)

ps. for the record, I was on the pill (same one) for 14 years, they lowered my dosage strength because of my age (I was 37) and I got pregnant. It even happens to us seasoned vets. :)

Sending good thoughts your way.

Wait, failed birth control methods don't count? I would think most of the women who are surprised they are pregnant were using birth control, weren't they? That was the case for me, anyway. That's the surprise aspect! Or am I missing something?

J.: You should tune into TLC's "I didn't know I was pregnant" (or some similar name.) The show features woman who were actually pregnant and claimed not to know. I'm sort of with you on this.

I'm right there with you. I'm sure there are a very small percent of pregnancies that come about from failed birth control (like maybe 2%), but everyone else should know that sex = possible pregnancy.

(and about this being a non-issue, at least you didn't put JFF in your heading. That kills me when people do. I mean, MOST things on this site are JFF really).

Everyone I know IRL who has had a surprise/unplanned pregnancy WAS on birth control. Often, more than one kind.

Everyone I know IRL who is surprised by a pregnancy spent years trying, often tons of money on fertility treatments, sometimes adopting... and then boom. Baby outta nowhere after years and years.

For brain donors who don't realize that unprotected sex = pregnancy &/or disease... I have nothing to say.

J., are you going under the assumption that all or even most women understand their own bodies and how fertility works? It's not always neat and tidy where both people in a sexual relationship, let alone one partner, are educated in their own fertility and make an effort to take responsibility for their joint fertility as a couple. How many men "leave it up to the woman" to make sure that a pregnancy doesn't occur? How many men then "blame" their wives for birth control failure or not realizing when they were fertile? Then they ask questions like this... how could you have been surprised by this pregnancy? Well, you made it 100% her responsibility, that's how. And how many of these women who are surprised by a pregnancy are also worried about how their husbands will react to the news and then come back and tell us how angry their husbands/boyfriends/fiances were at "what they did to him?"

It's an unlevel playing field when it comes to the responsibilities of birth control and family planning. Even Natural Family Planning method often fails because both partners are not involved, but the woman is expected to keep track of things on her own. It's complicated.

Pregnancy is always a surprise because you don't get pregnant every time you have sex. Surprise Parties are still surprises even though its your birthday and your friends have been acting funny.... Lol thats my best metaphor, sorry

It's a shock when preventative measures are taken. My first 2 were surprises, my third a shock.

so, in other words, it's kinda like when a man says, "hey, I can pee standing up!"

I'm sorry!! I couldn't resist! It's naptime for my daycare, & I'm bored!

Moving on to the question: ....come on, people! It's a part of nature. :)

& with the announcement of the "bad" packs of birth control pills, we'll be hearing it a lot more in the next few months.

EDIT: ladies, relax! It's a commentary on life, not a medical question!

I know several women who have had 4 surprise pregnancies!
I can not understand that at all.
If you fail to use birth control properly, assume you might get pregnant.

unless they are sleeping while having sex and don't remember doing it then yeah shouldn't be too big of a shock value.

I tend to skip those question or if I pop in one I shake my head.. same with the ones.. could I be pregnant? I just want to scream well did you have sex?!?

obviously there was reasons why you took the test in the first place so it shouldn't be too big of a suprise.

unless its one of those women who didn't know they were pregnant and had it in the toliet. I had a great aunt who was extremely over weight and they told her with her weight she couldnt get pregnant and thought the movement was gas and went to the dr because she fell down the steps and was in so much pain only to realize that the fall put her into labor. Now that was a suprise!

My surprise was my first child. I had been on BC pulls for 8 years and was very good about taking them. So when I went in to have a check up due to being so emotional leading up to my wedding, I was shocked to find I was almost 4 months pregnant. No missed periods, no morning sickness, nothing. So it can happen. But I know what you mean. In this day and age it seems impossible, but it does happen.

I think it has to do with no one knowing exactly when conception happens, so even when you're trying or just waiting on God the actual moment you know is a bit of a surprise.

I think most of the true surprises are BC/condom failures, you have to think of how many women there are in the world and with a fail rate of 1%-2% in such a large population, there's bound to be a large group. Who honestly uses both at the same time and perfectly?

Now, if someone isn't using a form BC and becomes pregnant, it's their own fault. If that person is over a certain age then they should know better.

my favorite is "I didn't know I could get pregnant while breastfeeding"

I tend to give the woman using the word surprise about her pregnancy as speaking more in line with 'here's some good/great news'! I mean the word "surprise" itself isn't (always) used in a way like 'caught you off guard.'

Hope that helps. LOL

Both of mine were surprises!! Really it was because of sex?!! News to me! Just kidding!! They both were planned.
The only women I know that were surprised were women who thought they couldn't get pregnant any more because of menopause. Trust me both of these women were surprised!!!

Yeah, I'm one of those women. I am on birth control, but can't have the back-up of the 'pill' b/c I can't take hormonal birth control, and some forms are too permanent for me right now in my life, but I even know of a few failed vasectomies.

I know a LOT of ladies on zero birth control who use the 'surprise' thing too. They basically say, "We were just seeing what was gonna happen." I told one, "You realize that means you were trying to conceive, right?" and she said, "OH? I never thought of it that way!"

Funny question! Well, my SIL has severe endometriosis (sp?) Anyway, they had to have fertility treatments to get pregnant w/ their first, after trying for years the old natural way. Her gyno told her that she'd never be able to conceive on her own, so after number 1, they figured they were done and continued on w/ life w/ no birth control. Then poof! She got pregnant naturally 5 years later and it was thus, a huge surprise :) It happens!

HAHA I am with you.
If you have sex you can get pregnant. THe only way not to get pregnant is to not have sex.
I have even heard of failed vasectomies.
So yeah, I too think it can't realy be that much of a surprise.

Now if you were having unprotected sex and not getting pregnant for years then all of a sudden get pregnant, then yes, I can see someone being suprised that it actually happened. But only in a well it's about time way, because if you have sex the chances of getting pregnant are pretty high.

I think it is just a choice of words, nothing more. I have never used the term but that is just what I gather from the words that proceed and follow it.

Some people, maybe, I mean I have seen a fair few we are not on birth control and have sex regularly, could I be pregnant. I mean someone who doesn't have a handle on that may be surprised, ya know?

I think that by NOT actively using BC it says: "if it happens, it happens and we're OK with that", don't you think?

For me personally? Not a fan of Russian Roulette.

I know, I have thought the same thing. With so many options available now to both men and women, I don't see how some women (and men) can say they are "surprised" or didn't "plan" it. I am one of the ones who was (very pleasantly) surprised after 11 years of no birth control and no pregnancies and being told I could not get pregnant. During those 11 years, I would see women around me get pregnant and claim they are shocked/surprised/blah blah blah, and I would just think "really?, you're shocked?" If you have sex, you gotta know that a baby could be the end result of that. Birds...Bees....

How many times have you been floored? Lol! Do you know all the birth control and medical particulars that factor in each time a woman says it? If you take out the birth control failure aspect of it, I can't imagine that it happens at that much.
Many of my friends have had a surprise pregnancy and ALL of them have been due to failed birth control.
I had a suprise pregnancy due to ignorance of how natural family planning works (JessicaWessica did a FABULOUS job explaining how people are uneducated about their own bodies- I was one of them!) but that jump started the desire to be "in tune" with my body so I figured out the timeline in which *my* body ovulates (not on the 15th day of a menstrual cycle like my doctor told me!!!).

You know what floors me? A 62 year old woman posted on my facebook page that she really wanted to give birth, just one more time. If she does, I will literally be on the floor! :)

Well, my MIL told me years ago that she got pregnant on the birth control pill, the condom, and the diaphragm. What are ya gonna do?

Stuff happens... it really does.

Dawn

Yes I'd be surprised. Since I use BC and have not been careless I would absolutely be shocked outta my skin.

Here's one for you.

I needed help (lots and lots of help) to have my first kiddo. Age 41 when she was born. My eggs were getting very old and tired. (Extremely high FSH levels.) With help, though, we succeeded.

We tried to use the frozen embryos for a second child but no go. We decided that was it. We would not try again.

A couple of months later (now 43 yo) I got pregnant, unexpectedly.

Was I on birth control? No. But I still think it makes sense that I was surprised. Confused? :-)

i agree to a point..Although I could ask my child to pick up her toys and when she does I could be suprised even if I did put it into motion? Sometimes the element of suprise happens evenwhen you expect it. I play hide and seek with my daughter and always jump out and scare her, she knows its going to happen but is still suprised=)
but I kinda agree...aside from all of the medical issues, or failed used of bc that was actually used properly I don't see how people are so suprised. I see people all of the time that say they sed nothing but weren't trying....IMO using no protecton is trying/playig russian roulette...ussually people say theyre not preventing it but not trying when in fact theyre trying but don't want people to ask them..anywho I pretty much agree.

Lol!! I am pregnant with our third baby. I wasn't shocked at all. I didn't refill my pills, and had to wait a month to renew my prescription. Well, wouldn't you know, we got pregnant in that month! Haha, neither my husband or I was at all surprised...

But, with our second baby, I was on the pill religiously!! I was absolutely floored to find out I was pregnant that time!

I was surprised. I was 39, had been on the pill since I was 18 and had just started trying (to get pregnant) two weeks before. So - yeah - I was surprised. However when I called my mom she knew immediately.

Ok well, I had a suprise pregnancy - I just had back surgery, I was on major pain meds and my body was NOT in a good place. I was told after my miscarriage that I could not carry a child past the first trimester IF I could get pregnant at all - my doctor told me that I should have sex and gave me certain positions as another form of physical therepy. Well, despite methods used for prevention I am a mother!

My parents were using multiple forms of birth control when I showed up in my mom's uterus too!

You are correct in a way that if you have had sex you should never be suprised if you end up pregnant, but it can be unexpected when other measures are being taken.

My 2nd was a total suprise. Not sure if I know how to explain it. I guess when it takes 9 plus months to get pregnant with the first and then at the time you have a 4 mos old and have sex 1 time - you don't expect to get pregnant. Maybe that is where the suprise part is - you don't expect it?

I am completely grateful for my suprise child - love her to pieces!

I've always thought the same thing too. Back in my youth, when Roe VS Wade was not that far in the past, Hollywood created a lot of movies about teens getting pregnant because they had not been educated about sex. That was a stupid premise then and it's a stupid premise now. It may fly that in the movie Blue Lagoon where two kids grow up on an Island, they might not understand how to get a baby or how not to get a baby. BUT, even two kids growing up out in the middle of nowhere could figure it out by watching the animals.

I think some woman want to believe it was a surprise so they don't catch heck from the husband. Others want to believe it is a surprise so the world owes them all kinds of payments and helps because after all, it's not their fault they are saddled with expensive kids.

The excuses don't fly with me. People know how to prevent it.

I don't get it either. It simply is if you are having sex, you could get pregnant, it should not be a surprise. Even the couples who are trying and trying and not on b/c for years and years and end up pregnant, yes, they are "surprised" but technically, they weren't on b/c because they wanted to get pregnant so it isn't a "surprise" pregnancy. I can't stand the women who are "surprised" over and over because they were not "planning" on getting pregnant, yet were not on reliable b/c either, or any at all. Or they forgot their pill "just once" or the condom broke...again...

You know I wonder that too. But not every pregnancy is the same. I just watched a show today called "I didn't know I was pregnant". And I guess it is possible, since they have a show about it too!!!

I think there are a lot of circumstances that it could come as a surprise...many of the women who posted prior to my response have pointed out situations that immediately come to mind. Like a friend of mine. Used contraceptives for years, was married, still used them. Then decided to see what would happen if... They went YEARS without getting pregnant. Would have been okay if it never happened, since they had pretty much given up waiting to see...

She is my age: 43. She is a runner. She is at the age some women have started having pre-menopausal symptoms. She didn't have a period, for a couple of months. Thought she had started with the pre-menopausal stuff... nope. She was almost 5 months pregnant when a friend suggested "hey... maybe you should take a test just to be sure..." THAT was a surprise.

But the ones that I totally get what you are saying are the ones that never practice any sort of planning, have intercourse regularly (or even intermittently) are prime child-bearing age and have had a "surprise" pregnancy already. How is that a real surprise? There are a lot of women who have tried (unsuccessfully) to become pregnant, have given up, and THEN ended up with a "surprise". It happened to my SIL also. Right after they adopted 2 kids. They had even attempted the IVF stuff unsuccessfully before adopting. Right after the adoption--- "Surprise!!" :)

So, not being negative, but you sometimes it helps to know a little history on the person having the surprise...

I think it has to do with not really knowing you're own body! Yes, my first PG was a surprise/oops BC failed. But I knew before I took the test that I was...I I just didn't want to admit it to myself, scared the beejus out of me at the thought I was going to be a mom. I was 27 years old never had a "hmmm think I'm pregnant" moment before. So I knew that the changes going on to my body were just that. Sorry I don't get the "I was pregnant and didn't know it"...

Not that I don't believe some of the stories...I just don't get it.

Ohhhh, J.. I will say that when I was 20 and not on birth control, I was surprised to find I was pregnant. Had been living with BF for over 2 years using no birth control. He was about 5 years older and had been sexually active a lot longer and had no children so I really had begun to believe he was sterile. (Never thought it could have been me. LOL). So, yes I was surprised.

P.S. I don't know. What do you do with a coconut?

I would guess that most of the surprises ARE failed birth control, either user carelessness/error or a freak thing.

I have had three surprise pregnancies - one due to careless/clueless use of birth control and the other while I was on the pill. I don't know anyone with a surprise pregnancy who wasn't using some kind of birth control, other than those who were by all measure supposedly infertile (as in many failed attempts at IVF and then adopting).

I am having a surprise right now and you are correct with our lapse in birth control I shouldn't be surprised. However having had fertility treatments for years, 2 other children and 4 miscarriages I still consider this one a surprise. A very wonderful surprise and a blessing, but no technically speaking I shouldn't call him a "surprise".

I think some women are not as in tune with their bodies and are semi-unaware of their cycles beyond when their period starts and stops. Some women are unaware that with birth control pills that antibiotics can render them ineffective, or that taking them at different times of the day can affect it also. Some women have a non-existent period for whatever reason and assume it cannot happen to them and boom.

In my daughter's case, she was told she would be sterile from chemo (not, might be - but WOULD be) and boy was she (and I and her fiancee) ever surprised. Genuinely and happily so!

EDIT: "Lighten up"? Hence the smiley... see, the smiley dictates the tone. If I put a smiley, then it is light in tone. Hope you weren't telling ME to lighten up. Ya gotta say something really super nasty on here to get any rise out of me! lol!! :) TOTALLY already light. Yes, the coconut is a non-issue! lol. I was just saying that you SHOULDN'T get heck, and IF you did, that would be why. Yes?

ORIGINAL: For one thing, I agree with Jo W. in the choice of words thing.

We have four kids. I don't use condoms or any birth control... and for many years my husband didn't have a vasectomy, now he does and he's in the "clear" (vasectomy was due to financial reasons, if money wasn't an issue, gee, I'd have NO idea how many kids we'd wind up with. Over a dozen?). That being said, I would be surprised! ...and I'd be happy. I believe children are a gift.

I don't think you deserve "heck" for this, except for the fact that what you are talking about is SUCH a non-issue:)

BTW, we never assumed we wouldn't get pregnant EVER, however, we never decided pre-pregnancy that we are "trying" to have a baby. If it happened, it happened! I'm pretty old-fashioned with the whole idea... Nowadays, BOY, people make a BIIIIIIIIG deal about having babies, one way or the tragic other way:(

"Surprise" suggests (and confirms) that not every time one has sex they will get pregnant. NOW, there's the possibility, but, there's no guarantee. If I had sex with my husband on a day I was ovulating (before he had his vasectomy), I would MOST CERTAINLY be surprised that I didn't get pregnant, due to our 100% track record. ....and on a day that a woman should not be ovulating, and they get pregnant? Another surprise.

If I got pregnant, it would be a surprise. Been trying for 6 years, doc says fertility issues. But for your average person, who's surprised/freaking out over being pregnant....

I don't even know. I think a lot of people don't know enough about their cycle and their body and how you get pregnant in the first place. They think that they've been having unprotected intercourse this long w/o getting pregnant... surely they won't get pregnant this time.

Really the only sure fire way to not get pregnant is to not have intercourse, or to only have intercourse when you can't possibly be fertile. (So few people know when they're fertile, unless they're intentionally wanting a baby and really study their cycle, signs etc.). The other methods of birth control in my opinion is a false sense of security.

Haha! Love this. I was TRYING to get pregnant with my third and didn't know. First two were very easy pregnancies-no morning sickness, nada. But I did have difficulty getng pregnant with the first two- #1 took 3 yrs, 3 mos of trying and #2 took a miscarriage and another 9 months of trying. So after thinking we might go for a third, I wasn't expecting too much, too soon. O yes, I was 41 at the time-reasonable to think there might be issues again. And before I get pregnant with my second the doctor had told me the chances of my conceiving again were slim to none-think about in vitro.
Well, I kinda felt uneasy in the mornings a few times but I kept having light periods, so never bothered to take a test. Lo and behold! I finally miss a period and make the doctor's appointment.
Yep, the baby was 14 weeks along. I had completely missed my first trimester. The "periods" were actually me miscarrying her twin. I swear I went into the doctor's office with a flat tummy and came out with a pooch. It was like my stomach muscles said "Finally! Acknowledgement!"
Shortest pregnancy ever...we waited until after the amino results to tell everyone which was mid September and then had her in January. Definitely the way to be pregnant!
So, yes, even people who have been pregnant, who are trying to get pregnant and who have actual knowledge of how the body works can still be a bit surprised.
(And this third one was the one that didn't want to come out, too. She was induced TWICE a week apart before she finally showed up. And at 14, she is still just as stubborn.)

I think "surprise" means "didn't think it would happen/happen to me." One of my friends was told by her OB that she couldn't have kids - surprise, surprise! Her son is 7. She had other health issues and near as anybody can guess, her body held off til she was healthier, but being told no, it wasn't on her radar at all. Then pregnancy can mimic your cycle so you get a lot of "could it be...or is it really just...?" in the early weeks.

I also think that some women don't know their own bodies, about fertility, about conception. They might believe that if they stand up during sex, they can't get pregnant, for example. Or not know that antibiotics can mess with their pills. They are surprised when their understanding of the process doesn't meet with reality.

It is difficult. For me to get pregnant, was on BC, breastfeeding. And for some reason forgot about how antibiotics. Can nullify. My BC until "God's. Gift" came along

I have a few friends that have issues with fertility, so the chances of them getting pregnant on their own are slim to none, and so they don't bother with birth control either. But one of them did end up pregnant around Thanksgiving time, so in a sense, it was a "surprise". Another friend had to go through several cycles of IVF to conceive their first son, so when she ended up pregnant naturally with their second, when the baby was 3 months old - wow, talk about a surprise!

My husband and his ex-wife had their first born son, who was 5 months old and being breast-fed and she got pregnant with their second born son, because she had not had a period yet and thought with the breastfeeding they were still okay. So that was a "surprise" too, due to their own ignorance and assumptions.

Ditto the others. Most women I know who have a 'surprise' pregnancy either/both:

1. Were using BC which failed (considering that there are hundreds of women on this board, many of whom are on BC, it's not statistically surprising that at least 2-25% would become pregnant anyways).
2. Had been told they couldn't become pregnant.
3. Have been TTC without success and had given up.
4. Were trying to conceive but thought it would take longer/shorter so it was a 'surprise' when it happened.

OR:
1. Did not understand
- how to use their birth control properly
- how to prevent pregnancy
- how a woman gets pregnant
2. Had their BC tampered w/ or were misinformed by an abusive partner as to their partner's reproductive status

The majority of people I know about who had surprises had them due to failed birth control, as you mentioned. Those pesky antibiotics did it every time. I remember being told that when I was young, but I guess not every doctor does a thorough job of warning patients about the antibiotic/BC pill issue...I know someone else who thought she and her husband were infertile, and you mentioned that too.

The only story I have that's different is the woman who was "surprised" with a pregnancy, and she thought she was "safe" because she was older and assumed that menopause had started. But the baby was very welcome and they were very excited.

I would say all 3 of my preg were a surprise. We were trying for all of them, but it took so long that we had given up hope each time. It seems like I can not get preg until I stop trying. They were all very good surprises.

.

My 3rd was a "surprise" as in we weren't trying. We just kind went with the moment one morning and weren't careful.
I think people are just saying that because they weren't expecting to be expecting. I know I wasn't. But I didn't refer to it as a surprise, I referred to is as an oops.

I was COMPLETELY surprised. I stopped bleeding on Friday, had sex - unprotected, that night because we were celebrating buying our first home, but still......and 2 weeks later throwing up ALL day - thought I had the flu or some stomach virus. I'd always been very irregular, but never early, so figured I had at least a week with being okay - ohhhhhh so wrong..