In the Trenches with Discipline Yet Again

Lots going on here.

First of all he is only 5. He wants to play. Sounds like the weather has been nice and he wants to play outside. If he is not allowed outside without you (how about a fenced back yard?), then you or your husband need to let him know WHEN will you be taking him outside?

"Dad and I need to do our Saturday chores. If you will help us, we can be finished faster. " Here are the things we need to get done." These are the things you can help with".

"At 9:00, I will go outside with you, so you can play. for 2 hours. Then we are going to lunch and then to the grocery store."

This is normal. Young children need a lot of active play. They are a bundle of energy. And they need to have a heads up of what to expect.

Active things he could do in the back yard? Swings, riding in his cars, bikes, hopping, jumping, spinning, Slides....

Sidewalk chalk, an outdoor easel with paints markers etc.. He is used to being active at daycare. Maybe consider a mothers helper on Sat. mornings when you and your husband are doing chores.. Otherwise consider locks that he cannot open so he cannot run off.

Getting in his face and verbally letting him have it over and over.. is not working.. He needs short directions. "We NEVER draw, paint or mark ANY walls at any time." Repeat what I just said."

You do not have to go on and on about it, just straight out always rule.

"You do not touch mommies things.These are my private things." Tell me what I just said.

"You are NEVER to leave the house without me or dad.. EVER. If you do this, you could get lost, you could get hurt. I do not want anything bad to happen to you. You ARE going to get to play outside as soon as we can get our chores done."

"If you break this rule, you will not be able to play outside for the rest of the day. Tell me what I just said. "

You believe in spanking, but it does not really seem to make a difference to him.. It only makes you feel like you are doing something as a discipline. My sister used to be like this. She would rather do what she wanted. take the spanking and move on. It got so bad my father just started spanking her more and more.. She was outsmarting him..

The discipline needs to match the child.. Sounds like in reality he does not care.

Instead let him know, he can do better. He needs to use his words and let you know he is wanting to go outside, so you can then let him know, how you all can make that happen.

Child ~ "I want to play outside. Everyone is already out there."

Parent ~ "Ooo looks like fun. We can do that once I can get all of the clothes to the laundry room, all the dishes put away and once I take my shower. You can help take the clothes to the laundry room. Look around the house and make sure their are no dirty dishes around the house. Why don;t you play some puzzles, watch a video..until we are able to go out with you. .Be specific, give him some ideas.

He is still not old enough to think up exactly what to do.. He is too focused on the "Want to go play with his friends." He needs help building up patience. When he does have patience, when he is helping, when he has a good day.. Let him know you have noticed. That you knew he could do it.And let him know you appreciate his patience.

There should be 3 positives to a negative. This works with adults too..

First off I wouldn't get 'in his face' or lecture him or go on verbally like you are. He is 5 years old and knows you've told him not to do these things so he's doing it because of one of several reasons. One is he knows it upsets you. Maybe he is so tempted to play with others and their things that he just doesn't care. Maybe he knows you are not consistent with discipline so he will take his chances. Whatever it is he is not listening to your voice and so you need to sit down with him and tell him the rules and what will happen if he doesn't abide by them. Then if he leaves the yard again just calmly call him in or get him and follow through with whatever you've agreed on with your husband. Maybe if you went out with him in the yard some to homes he can go play with swings or other toys it would help as you'd be there to watch him. If not maybe he needs more to keep him busy at home or in his own yard. He must like playing with other kids so maybe they could come to your house. The other things he's doing sound to me like he is wanting your attention and maybe not getting enough one on one time with you, or at least not the right one on one time. I'm not against spanking but never when angry.

I know you're upset, but he's 5. And part of what he is doing is because he is frustrated with you for being so emotional and lecturing him too much. I don't have one problem with you spanking his bottom for things like him leaving the yard, (though you really don't have to pull his pants down), but it would be more effective if you only did that once in a while. The more often you do it, the less it will mean to him. You should also only do it as soon as he commits the "crime", like when you found him at the neighbors. If you wait, he doesn't actually see the two as a cause and effect.

If you felt that you had to call your mom so that you wouldn't explode when you spanked him, you have too much invested in your son's behavior. This isn't all about you, mama. This is about him. He is a little child and his brain doesn't "compute" like yours does. Try to stop taking this so personally. He is going to push the envelope because he is trying to be his own person. The way to deal with it is with consequences that fit the infraction. Stealing candy? Take the candy away. Don't ask your son if he took the candy. Tell him that he isn't allowed to have candy without asking, so the candy is now gone because he didn't ask. He'll eventually "get it". Next time you bring candy in the house, remind him that he has to ask, and tell him what will happen if he gets in it without asking. Then follow through. Every time. If you ask him if he did it, you are almost asking him to lie to you. Little kids will lie to keep from getting into trouble.

And when you give him that consequence, do it without emotion. You can be face-to-face with him, but don't talk him to death. He's 5. He's a boy. The best way to deal with a boy is tell him short and sweet why he's in trouble, and give him the consequence already. You mention feeling like you have to be mean when you are disciplining him. You can get the job done by being stern, giving him the consequence, and remembering that just because he got in trouble once, doesn't mean that he's going to never get in trouble again.

Really and truly, try not to stress so much about his behavior. Just be consistent with your consequences. Change something about his surroundings if you need to. Instead of leaving out the crayons and polish, you need to put them away. He's 5. (I feel like a broken record saying that.) You really expected him to NOT play on the swingset when the other kids were? He's 5! He's not going to sit there and watch them play on the swingset while they are all doing it, no matter what you have said.

If other kids are around and they come play on that swingset, then you need to be outside with him, or buy him a swingset of his own. (Prepare to say the same thing as your neighbor, and see other kids come and play on your swingset, although their moms tell them not to.) You can't keep him in the house all the time.

You know how babies drop their cups on the floor over and over to see you pick it up and give it back to them? They are studying cause and effect, and enjoying the realization that they can get mom to do this. Five year olds are pushing the envelope to see if mom will get frustrated enough to give up. Mom says no drawing with a crayon. Hmm, what happens if I use finger nail polish? How about if I pull the curtains down? I wonder how red Mommy's face will get? Will she yell really loud?

I really believe that if you don't lose your temper with him, and "rip him a new one" verbally, he will do better. If you continue to deal with him like this, he will continue to ignore your rants (like telling you he's hungry in the middle of it all - it's his way of trying to calm you down so that you'll quit - smart little boy!) and you will lose your mind.

He is a little child, and you are expecting him to act twice his age. The sooner you figure that out, the better off you'll both be.

Good luck,
Dawn

As someone else put it -- he needs consequences amped up to fit his age. And, I'd add, he needs consequences to fit the seriousness of what he's doing. Frankly the thing of wandering to another house would make my hair stand straight up -- if another neighbor who is a stranger gets a trampoline or anything else interesting in their yard, will he wander there too? The possibilities are scary, as I know you know!

The consequences he did get don't seem to be having an effect. His candy vanished; he wasn't allowed to play "the rest of the night" which is not really much of a loss; he was fussed at verbally for going back to the swingset the S. time; he was fussed at "in his face" for the painting with nail polish. Everything's pretty much verbal.. It sounds like it's time to find his "currency" -- the thing he just HATES to lose -- and taking it away when he does certain things. This is done with warnings to him first, so he knows that doing X will result instantly in losing Y and losing it for long enough to really feel the loss. Then afterward you can emphasize with him that next time he does X again, he will lose Y again with NO warning that time.

Say he adores his TV time of however long each day. When things are calm and he has not done anything he shouldn't, have a calm talk about your new system of "consequences." He's not too young to learn what the word means. If he does X, he will lose TV time for one day. If he does Y, he loses TV time for one full week. Whatever. Work out yourself what you think the consequences need to be. And then enforce them very consistently and without caving, and calmly in the face of any fussing he does. If a behavior escalates, so does what he loses. That birthday party he was dying to attend at the zoo? So gone.

The currency may be a toy he loves to play with, or a promised outing that he will have to miss. But he needs to lose some things he really values and needs to start making the vital connection in his mind: His actions cause specific and undesirable consequences AND those consequences will happen consistently every single time he does the actions. At five, he can make that connection and needs to have it firmly in place soon.

As for the spanks -- you spanked because you felt other things you were doing were failing you: but those other things didn't use his currency or give him any real consequences other than having the adults fuss at him. After a while, yelling at him or explaining things to him will lose any impact, but he will long remember the week you took away all TV or the time he missed his best friend's pool party. Spanking him doesn't help him learn to connect his actions with the pain of spanking; it's an adult's immediate, emotional reaction to frustration and doesn't contain a lesson. I'd suggest it would be better to give him discipline --which teaches a child how to behave in the future -- rather than punishment, which does not teach anything but just causes immediate pain. I know you werent' looking for any anti-spanking message, but I think that spanking won't get you where you want to go here because it won't help him learn.

Unless your yard is fenced in you need to be outside with him. He is only 5. Kind of sound likes to be busy....is he involved in any sports yet? soccer, t-ball or skating. I would keep this little one busy doing projects and crafty things. At 5 he will really enjoy it. I would also catch him doing good things and praise him a lot. I would keep consequences short and age appropriate from now on. If he colors on anything beside his coloring books or paper I would have his clean it and time out for 5 min. or take a toy away for the day. Aslo they sell crayons that only write on certain paper and not on walls. Best idea!! Keep your polish and things of yours away, its to temping for your curious one..lol
I never spanked any of my kids. I did do time out and took away favorite toys. I always meant what I said and never wavered. I also did this without yelling (we all have our moments thou) I used a stern voice so he knew I meant business. He does sound like a wonderful child who is just looking for attention and pushing buttons....it all normal momma! So just a little tweeking with how you do things and your on the right track!

He has learned to tune you out. That's why anything you say holds no weight.

Let HIM suffer the consequences. He ruins the wall, HE cleans it up (or at least do alot of scrubbing). He goes into the neighbor's yard and breaks their rules, let him get caught and maybe a good yelling from them will open his eyes and ears. As a matter of fact, when my son does something wrong in someone's household, I have the parents ask my son directly to stop doing something and let him know what will happen if he continues. Its not exactly passing the buck...its more like sharing the authority and co-enforcing rules.

There is nothing wrong with spanking him (I'm personally not on board with bare butts but that's my opinion). It could be much more effective and therefore rare if it wasn't a last resort when you're mad after lots of ineffective things like yelling, guilt trips, and other random reactions. It also sounds like he was let off too easy between ages 1 and three if he's even trying this type of stuff at age 5. Just concurring with your assessment there, not telling you something you don't know-so good work realizing that he has slid into this over time.

BUT. My son is four, and still pushes boundaries at times. That is NORMAL and OK. Don't think of it as a failure when a child has been great for months and then starts sliding gradually off track-that is what happens with ALL kids. No kid is good forever just because they were effectively disciplined way back when. If you handle it calmly, firmly, non-angrily, and immediately, you're right back on track. WORST CASE SCENARIO you have to be that tough for three straight days-TOPS, but I've never lost control for that long.

We always spanked, from day one. After one warning for serious misdeeds (things that would not be allowed going forward and needed to be learned) with no anger. There was simply no option to escalate wrong actions this way, and we almost never discipline our kids who are now 6, 4 and 2 1/2. They are the most sweet, polite, happy, well disciplined kids around. We just got back from a 2 hour classical orchestra concert I took them too ALONE and they were great. And my third was a born terror who started being firmly disciplined at 9 months, which is WHY she's good at 2 1/2.

So anyway, here's how a spanking goes at my house once in a blue moon, for my son who gets NO OTHER DISCIPLINE, no yelling, no time outs, no lost hours in his room, no lost toys...NOTHING. He is literally NEVER in trouble. He rarely gets swatted, and that's all he gets. No tantrums, no disrespect, nada. Here's how:

Recently he acted VERY POORLY for his ENTIRE Tae Kwon Do class. As in, not listening and goofing off because he was bored. He KNOWS this is not OK, and he had been warned a couple of times for acting that way a little bit in class, but like ANY KID, the heart-felt explanations and warning not to do it again had no effect so he continued to act up more and more until voila-he was really bad that night. I saw the progression, I knew it was because he had been good for so long, he probably didn't even remember what discipline was like.

So. I told him as we left, that because he behaved extremely poorly to his teacher and his class he was getting a spanking when we got home AFTER my zumba class. No yelling, no anger no drama, just let him know that fact. Two hours later back at home, The moment of reckoning came, and I took him to his room "alone" instead of in front of sibs, lovingly explained that he knows better, and I know it, but I have to discipline him since he "decided" (must be about his choice) to ignore my nice warnings. He even said, "Yes mom, I know" I gave him 4 major stings for four years old (stung my hand-and made me realize he hasn't been spanked since he was 2 because he's never had 3 swats!!!) over his pants. He really screamed. It really hurt, he was really sorry, I reminded him again to be nice the next class or we'd be right back in there. Not only has he been back to awesome in class ever since, he's been happier and sweeter in general ever since. Like he was relieved I put him back in check. That was two months ago.

But it's so effective because we have always been consistent and never bothered with mild things that make behavior so much worse.

If I were you, I'd calm down, act sooner before you're mad, embrace that sometimes kids need discipline, and he's showing all those signs. He's way too old to act that way (drawing on walls??!) and can totally control himself when you lay down the law. Get the book Back to Basics Discipline by Janet Campbell Matson. Stop being frustrated. Don't be angry. Just take charge right away. He'll be better in no time!

My son pulled that exact same leaving the yard trick when he KNEW he wasn't allowed to a couple of years ago. I think that was the last time he was spanked! (And he never leaves the yard now-and we have no fence, I let him go out all the time)

My six year old would never in a million years do any of these things your son is trying. It will take more repetition and perseverance at 5 if he's used to you being inconsistent, mine get on track easily because they've never been allowed to get far off track. But you will succeed if you are CONSISTENT with something EFFECTIVE, based on his choice to a known rule, not your anger. The reason being calm is so much more effective, is that whether you're doling his extremely uncomfortable consequences, or reading him his favorite book, you're still his laid back loving mom who feels fine. The message is: He's ONLY hurting himself for his wrong choices. He does not have the power to make you hysterical and let him off easy with a good yell.

Yelling is fine for unimportant things, and then you can joke that you know you're being a useless cranky harpie (my kids make fun of me if I yell-rightly so)-but for major no nos: calm, cool and serious.

No bashing, discipline isn't fun. I have no problem with spanking, if they need it, they need it and there are times that warrant it! And of course it could be worse, and it will be if you don't get tough NOW and lose all control of the situation.

It seems he's moved past the timeout/hug/apology/it's over phase, and needs to have the discipline amped up appropriate to his age. I suggest in addition to natural consequences like cleaning up his mess, losing out on more candy, etc., you start taking away privileges, and he can earn them back with good behavior. Believe me, he knows right from wrong and has learned how to manipulate you, I believe it's in kid's job description ; ) But remember that boundaries teach, and you're doing him a huge favor by teaching him there will always be rules to follow in life.

Be consistent with the consequences, of course there will be times of good behavior, then the rotten one, you have to be prepared to jump into gear with your planned consequence/discipline and not be surprised when it happens. My 3 year old has just started to pull out the big guns in demonstrating unacceptable behavior. so I am with you in the trenches! {{HUGS}}

Breathe.
Ok, now, don't guilt yourself silly over spanking him. He earned it. You know good and well that he deliberately wrote on that bathroom wall KNOWING that it was wrong. KNOWING that it wouldn't come off. KNOWING that you wouldn't be happy about it. I'd be willing to bet that he takes you at your word about where the limits lie for the next short while.

I do wonder though, not so much that you have been working late, but that while you are at work and he is with Dad, is DAD being as on-top-of things in your absence as he ought to be? Finding that Dad isn't quite as strict about things as Mom is can be a license to test the theory and see if Dad tells Mom that what son did is really not that bad, that it isn't a big deal. All kids try that bit of manipulation. Really, they do. It doesn't make him a bad kid at all. It makes him smart and learning about how to "manage" people. :)

So, maybe he was trying that out (maybe not, but...).

But really, relax a little, breathe. You did fine.

Aw that sucks, but remember he is five and when ur tempted to slack off cause things are getting easy DONT! I think we've all been there

Oh, parenting at this age is SOOOO tough. I would say this: Pick your battles.

When you scold him, are you giving him the "alternative choices" in these situations? And if scolding shuts him down completely, re-evaluate your approach.

Candy: "Son, if you want candy, please ask Mommy. Taking it without asking is not okay. It's sneaking and sneaking is like lying. It's not allowed."

Leaving the yard: "Son, you're soooo important to me. If you want to go play with the other kids, you need to ask me so we can go down and make sure it's okay with them first. I worry when I look out in the yard and see you aren't there. Can you help me by coming and asking me if it's okay first?"

Curtains: "I noticed that you like to get wrapped up in the curtains when you're looking out the window. Those curtains are pretty expensive...how about if we get you a chair to sit on and a sheet to wrap around you. That way the curtains will stay up."

As for his inattention during the lecture...we parents have a tendency to go on and on when we're upset at our kiddoes. Think back to when you were a child...I remember thinking "man, I wish mom would just finish up!" Eventually, kiddo isn't even hearing what you're saying. He's off in la-la land. That's why you have to KEEP IT SHORT AND SIMPLE. If you've surpassed 4-5 sentences, you're talking too much and cannot blame your child for their inattention.

Paint...

Sigh...well, it sounds like your son is bored. You gave a 5 year old enough time alone to access nail polish and paint a smiley face with it. Yes, he knows better....but where is the supervision?

Regarding the "getting in his face" and the spanking: I'm all for the appropriately applied spanking. But be CAREFUL with this. You should never get in his face and show him anger/frustration right before the spanking. This shows him that you are spanking him IN ANGER. Instead, sit down calmly and show your DISAPPOINTMENT. Show him how sad the situation makes you. And when you tell him he earned a spanking, say it sadly...because it IS sad.

You did what you thought was right...and that's important. All I would say is, in retrospect, next time try to tone down the frustration and approach him calmly and rationally at HIS level. Remember...your job is to teach him to navigate the world and use his critical thinking ability. So try to consider the world from his view before you react...and when you explain things.

All the best to you.