It's the Parent's Fault, Not the Child.

I think it's the parents fault some of the time. But also, there are wonderful parents who do 'everything by the book' and still have extremely difficult children. It sounds like the mom is trying, but doesn't know much about positive reinforcement and is stuck in a bad cycle.

Since she expressed concern about not knowing what to do, then you can email her this link to Dr. Sears Discipline guide (which is awesome), or you can get her the book as a gift :) Also, when I have parents at my home who have out of control kids and the parent doesn't do anything about it, I always set ground rules for visiting children and I very nicely talk to the kids when they break a rule.

If you want to talk to her, simply say, "I find that modeling good behavior helps with my children. Instead of hitting back, show them how to react to a situation instead and give them a time-out. Also, 'catching' them being good and praising that, will help them want to earn that positive response, so their actions will more likely lead to better behavior"

website:
http://askdrsears.com/topics/discipline-behavior

book:
http://www.amazon.com/Discipline-Book-Better-Behaved-Chil...

I wouldn't say anything to her, you would just make her mad and what would be the point? You think someone like that would listen? I just would stop inviting her over if it bugs you that much.

I hear what you're saying. I once spent time in the pediatrician's waiting room with a boy that supposedly had ADD or ADHD (one of them). He was sitting there minding his own business while this male (I'll assume it was his dad) kept antagonizing and poking him for a reaction. This guy made it a point to bring up his 'condition'.

By the time I left there I was more than convinced that it was the 'father' that needed medicated and not the son. If left to his own devices I bet that boy would be normal.

Maybe give her a book that doesn't blame her, but gives her some techniques. You could say, "I see your kids are driving you crazy with their antics and behavior. I found this book helpful and it helped me to adjust their behavior and gave me great coping ideas." That way you are not expressly saying "you are an abusing wench and teaching these kids bad habits" but you're kindly giving her some tools to try.

Also, if you do have them over again, you might lay out the ground rules in advance (so she can hear" "We don't allow hitting, hairpulling, etc, etc. in this house and when if happens, the person who does it gets to sit on the stairs" then maybe you can direct what the punishment is before she steps in a decks one. In my own house I have no problem parenting other children if something egregious is happening.

Holy cow! It actually made me sick at my stomach to read about your friends behavior with her children....knot-in-the-stomach sick.

You're right....
She DID make them this way.
She sounds like a real piece of work--sorry--I know she's your friend.

Honestly? Do you think she'd be open to that type of a discussion?

I, personally, wouldn't subject my kids to her kids (or HER) any longer.
That would be the last time they visited my home. :(
I feel very sorry for her kids.

While there are a lot of kids with developmental issues and GREAT parents... there are also a lot of totally crappy parents who teach their children to be bullies/ obnoxious/ etc.

We had friends like that (different kind of parenting, though... they were the "distracto" parents who waved toys in their son's face or would just redirect redirect redirect and he NEVER got in trouble for attacking other kids). Note the past tense.

We tried to work with them for awhile (lesson learned), and we did a "first hit and home" rule (5 minutes max)... and then just finally had to cut off all contact.

I know the type. Related to a family like this. Another SIL and I have had the hard discussion of dealing with them (poor parenting and aggressive children), and finally came up with a middle-of-the-road plan. We used to invite the whole family for all the bdays. Now, we invite the kids that are closest in age and who would like to come. For instance, my other SIL just had a bday party for her 5 year old. She only invited the other family's kid that was closest in age and gender (age 7, girl -- also their black sheep that never gets positive attention). The morning of the party that SIL canceled her 7 year old from coming saying the girl was sick. Wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't. Anyway, can I tell you how NICE it was to have the party without all the craziness? No one got hit, yelled at, toys taken, etc. No one said anything really inappropriate or nasty. The adults all enjoyed each other's company because the remaining 5 kids played so nicely and quietly together. My husband and I didn't have to constantly check to see if our 22 month old was being launched, picked up by kids, or hit. We also didn't have to keep an eye on their twin 2 year olds that are allowed to run freely, pull hair, and hit --- let alone make sure they were properly supervised, fed, and changed.

My advice since she is a friend. Either tell her that you don't like having them over because of all the aggression (her's too) and risk ending the friendship (which sounds like you'd like to) or simply do not invite them over -- meet at a park where you can leave when it gets ugly. If she asks why you don't meet at your house or hers, tell her that it stresses your kids out.

Good luck. It isn't fun AT ALL.

Tread carefully here...no matter how good of friends you are, people don't want to hear that it's their fault or they are not doing a good job as a parent. People tend to get defensive if they think you see them as a failure. Get the book/video that was suggested by other posters and just tell her that you found some great tips on helpful parenting and thought, since she was having a hard time (she did ask for help, right?) that maybe she'd find some useful information, too.

That's really all you can do right now, and hope it works...no one wants to be told directly what they are doing wrong or how they could do it better, unless they ask directly! Best of luck...being a parent is a really hard job that not many of us are fully prepared for! We do the best we can and having supportive friends who don't judge sure does help!

We know this type of parenting is not a good shining example of mothering, but it apparetnly is hers. She could just be overwhelmed with her kids. Looks like they stair step. You could say something like "its not easy having them so close in age, is it?" I would use an open ended question to get her talking. If she doesn't I don't know if buying her books or videos are going to do any good. Would she read them?

When she states that she is frustrated say "yes, I can see that you are". "Why don't you try ......" See what she says. She could be asking for some guidance and you just need to answer her questions. Be careful. You can be honest but do not be confrontational or blame her for everything. We sometimes make life much more complicated than it needs to be!

buy her the video "1-2-3 Magic". Be a friend & save her life!

It sounds like she does not know/see that there are other options. As an outsider you can see the correlation between the behavior but living it maybe she can't. If there is a book that has worked for you to give insight into other options for parenting maybe you could recommend it to her or even better lend her your copy. "I had a hard time with hitting with kid #2...then i read.....happiest toddler on the block or 123 magic......It really worked" Then see if there are any changes in her parenting/the children's actions.
I would also closely supervise any playdates to make sure my little ones were safe ( sounds like you are already doing this) and if it comes to a point where you feel like your kids are not safe I would stop hanging out with them. Also consider a playdate at the park where there is more space so you do not have to deal with the mess and more room to play so hopefully fewer fights.
For the cursing I would specifically ask her to watch her language around my child. I do that for anyone who curses in front of my kiddos. Usually a comment ...."oooh language....sorry they are little sponges at this age" does the trick.
Good luck!

You can't tell her how to parent but you can be an example. Be sure that in your presence, when your own kids or hers do something wrong you look them in the eye, at their level, and say "Johnny, hitting is not nice. We don't hit here. You hurt Suzie and need to apologize." or something similiar depending on what they have done. Do this EVERYTIME!

You can try to talk to her, but I bet she won't listen. I do, however, think you are right. Her kids get hit, so they hit, etc.

You can try giving her a book like 1,2,3 Logic (I think that's the name) to help her with her kids and say, "This was helpful to me" or "I've heard good things about it."

If you think she's open to you being more direct, tell her, "I know you have your hands full with three little kids. Can I offer you some advice, mom to mom? Have you tried...?" And then suggest a book or a different time out technique or whatever. Remind her that parenting is a marathon and not to get bogged down in little things but look at the big picture. If she wants her kids to stop hitting, then she needs to stop hitting. If she wants them to stop cussing, she needs to model that. Parenting is hard because it makes us look at ourselves and sometimes that is not such an easy thing to do. I've definitely been held to my own mirror a time or two and it stung.

IF you're willing to have this family over again..... Tell her kids the ground rules as suggested by Kristin H. Then tell HER the ground rules, no one cusses or hits children in this house. We know that hitting children encourages them to hit, and no one cusses in front of my kids. Then let her decide if she wants to come back to your house again.

First, let me say that some kids are just born with more energy and less focus than they know how to handle well. It's not their fault, and it's not the parents' fault. One of my daughter's best friends has a child who leaves her whole house in chaos by the time he leaves after a visit. The mom interacts with her son like the firm, calm schoolteacher she is, but he's able to straighten up for only moments at a time, and she can never guess what playful havoc he'll wreak next.

And you also have a valid point. Some parenting is far from excellent. I think it's safe to say that every single parent is "programmed," by the time we are old enough to wonder about it, to react to other people in the ways that were modeled by our own parents and caregivers. This friend of yours, more than likely, was treated pretty much the way she treats her children. And, like many of us, she probably figures she turned out all right, so her kids will, too. And they will turn out "all right," that is, a functional adult who gets by without having to change very much.

Not very many of us come willingly to recognizing a need for, and then deciding upon, change. And then working for however long it takes to remake old habits. No matter how caring your intentions, your friend will probably see it as insensitive and intrusive at best, insulting at worst.

The only way most of us change is reaching a point where what we're doing gets us consistent slaps from reality. Some people are pretty blind to where those slaps are coming from, and persist in the choices that are not working well. But unless they're causing actual harm to themselves, their children, or other people, we don't generally get to point out the problem – it will only cause defensive reactions.

The only thing I've discovered that works some of the time, if the mom in question is not asking for yourl advice, is to model the parenting that works best for you. If you read a fabulous book or pick up a practical new tip, work it into your conversation. Mention what great results it has given you. Then take a few deep breaths, and let it go till next time.

You also have the right not to invite this friend into your home. That would be one of the "slaps from reality." Your friend may ask you about this, and then you can tell her that you don't want your children mistreated or cussed at, or your house torn asunder. Be sympathetic, but firm. And this might be one of those opportunities to tell her about your favorite parenting book. (Mine is How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk, by Faber and Mazlish. Practical and effective, for all sorts of problems.)

Maybe you can search online for an article on parenting that address some of the issues she is having and email a link or copy to her. I would say something like, I was online and found this great parenting article and thought maybe it would give you some good ideas to use with your kids. Good luck!

As a family success coach, the number one thing my families work on is awareness. If your friend is not aware, then it is your responsibility as her friend to let her know that her behaviour and that of her kids is NOT appropriate around you and your kids. You get to choose what you allow your kids to be around wand what not. It is PERFECTLY ALRIGHT to say to her, I am not pleased with the way your children hit my children or the way you speak to your kids. You can do that in your own home but not in mine. If you wish to visit you will have to refrain from that behaviour. I love being friend with you but the safety and well being of my children come first.

It really can be that simple when you are direct, non judgemental and factual. You DO NOT allow hitting, yelling, cussing, whatever, and those who bring that into your home are not welcome.

B.
Family Success Coach

I don't think a point blank conversation will accomplish anything. I'm not sure that offering her ideas/suggestions (which she apparently has asked for from you) will go over well either, though.

If it were me, I would purchase a book (we personally used and liked 1-2-3 Magic) and the next time you stop by her home, or have a scheduled/planned get together of any kind, take it with you and say "oh.. I remembered you being so stressed out at our play-date, and saying that you were at your wits end and didn't know what else to try, and I remembered THIS. I read it and thought it had some great suggestions/ideas, some helped ___(us, my sister, my neighbor, a friend of mine from work, etc) out a LOT! Here." And give her the book.
Don't suggest a book. Don't mention a technique. Don't giver her advice. Just give her the BOOK. She will read it, or not. She will use it, or not. She will thank you, or not.
And then you can choose whether (or not) to continue having play-dates with her, at your home (or not).

:)

Frankly, I have VERY little patience for parents (or anyone else) who uses foul language with small kids. It's like I tell my own kids (10 & 13): Folks who use that sort of language must have a limited vocabulary, or else they are just plain lazy, if they can't come up with something better to say than that. TOTALLY not necessary (AND counter-productive) to use with young kids.

As a mother of fraternal twins who have been raised exactly the same since they were born, I can tell you that our children are not entirely what we make of them. My children are completely opposite in every way and yet they were raised exactly the same. One is kind. One is mean. One thinks of others. One is totally self centered. One is fast. One is slow. One is appreciative. One is spoiled. And the list goes on and on. So, is your friend making things worse for her kids? Of course. I doubt she will change. You should probably distance yourself from her for your sake and mostly for the sake of your children.

Have you seen that funny parenting book entitled:

"You're Kids Are Your Own Damn Fault!"

There are A LOT of ineffective parents in this world. They are either repeating what they grew up with or are in denial about how their kids behave.

You have to decide what you want in the long run with this 'friend' and her parenting style. I personally would distance myself and find friends whom I have more in common with. It's a passive way out. I would only say something if I knew this friend had an open heart and mind to start with. Otherwise, you're wasting your time and energy.

Ditto Sue below....the video would help build skills for the entire family and you'd essentially be positively effecting many lives.

There are sometimes when it is a parents fault but there are those kids that have behavior disorders that it really isn't the parents fault , unless you count genetics.

I have one child that WAS born with that terrible aggressive uncontrollable side. It's not uncommon for there to be multiple kids with behavior/learning disorders in the same family. I have 4 younger siblings. Out of the 5 of us only 1 is "normal" .
There is no excuse for cussing at them. But my sister in law uses cuss words around her kids and they don't repeat them.

Now , I hear 123 magic or Total Transformation are really good. I haven't used it personally , I use books that are aimed at ADD/ ADHD kids. But without a proper dx I wouldn't recommend them. Next time she says she frustrated about their behavior , recommend one of the books you see her listed.

Gotta agree with Cyndee A. Children aren't strictly 'what we make them.' They have their own personalities and their own issues. I've got three kids, and was so impressed with my parenting skills when I was blessed with a wonderfully reasonable, well-behaved firstborn son. Nine years later, my firebrand daughter appeared, and boy, was that a lesson in humility! This really isn't the issue in the situation you've described, but please be aware that some children are MUCH more challenging than others, and it has nothing to do with the way they are parented.

IMO she will not be too happy with you addressing your opinion of her parenting, regardless of how correct you are..and you are. I would simply wait until she mentioned getting the kids together again and just say that your kids are not really wanting to play since they do not seem to "Get along" well...I would deflect to, maybe when they are older and mature a little they will be more compatible (of course knowing that will never happen)..sad but if you really want to continue the frienship, I would keep it just the ladies and maybe when speaking of the kids you can share your parenting style...she may respect your views when they are "conversational" and adopt a few or even start Asking for advice..

:)

Well I HAD a couple friends whose kids hit mine, ALOT. And the moms never hit their kids from what I saw. In fact they were TOO nice about it, and our friendships ended because I'm not allowiing my kids to be beat up by theirs!
Parenting is a ticky tricky topic. My middle son has been a HANDFUL. He started hitting me at an early age and I had never hit him. It is a human instinct, it's all about how you handle it when they do it. It will probably be hard to talk to your friend about this, I can almost garauntee she'll get defensive. Hense my I "had" two friends statement lol
I like the parenting w/ love and logic books, and believe me I have read them ALL lol

Call Child Protective Services. If she does that in public, what does she do in private? A call to CPS doesn't mean that kids will be taken away. Rather, they may be able to connect her to some resources and parenting classes to help her parent in a better way. Those kids deserve better and a life of violence, cursing, and insults is too much to ask a child to bear.

Distance yourself.
Also do not let your 11 yo be her babysitter. If she thinks you are great friends and you have the coveted teen then she will want some of her time.

oooh my!! this is sad.

If I were to have them over again - I would set ground rules. Make them hard and fast. And even with the mom. No hitting. No swearing. No "snatching" as my kids call it. And tell them the consequences of those actions. If they take it out - they must put it away. Keep it simple. But keep it consistent.

Sounds like she needs parenting classes since she didn't have good role models growing up.

You may have to take her under your wing and help her. If you can't - I understand. Tell her honestly and bluntly that their behavior is learned and she is teaching it to them. In order to make it stop - she has to stop. Tell her that if she's not willing to change her ways- that as much as it pains you - you will have to stop being friends. As accepting this behavior is condoning it.

IF they come over again. And she starts cussing and such - pull her aside (not in front of the kids) and tell her - let me show you how I would handle this...and do it. Tell or remind her of your rules and that she has to abide by them as well.

Lead by example. You need to make a touch decision. Good luck!!

The kids don't act this way because she spanks them. They act this way because she is clueless, overwhelmed, reactionary, angry, humiliating them by "disciplining" them in front of other people, complaining about them, being a whack-job like her parents, and not consistent. I bet you a million bucks she lets them slide all the time at home-when she's not being cruel to them, and then gets more uptight when other people are around. I often see this exact same behavior from kids who are never spanked. "Positive example" is also not the cure-all to childrens' behavior. My kids were spanked-maybe once-for each of the things you list, in private, with a calm explanation, and the behavior did not continue. I hold myself ENTIRELY responsible for their behavior at all times, and I am dedicated to consistency and love. I have never yelled at them or been angry at them. They are kind, wonderful kids who are often victimized by lenient parents who look on and do nothing about their aggressive kids but tell them "Sweetie, that's not very nice, say sorry" (and the kid doesn't). bad parenting comes in many forms. If anyone was hitting their kids or cussing at them in my house, I would never let my kids near them again. I'm sorry for your friend, and YES, stay away. We have many friends we've lost due to their poor parenting and terrible kids.

I had the reverse problem. I had a friend who would yell at her children for every little thing, and often spanked them for behaviors I didn't even consider to be bad - just kids being kids. The problem was that her children were angels. They always behaved better than mine (and my kids are pretty well-behaved!), hardly a peep out of them. Of course, if they did peep, they were spanked.

I never did figure out how to broach the subject of her parenting with her. It's hard to say, "Look, I can tell it's working right now and your kids are perfect, but I think you're being too hard on them and it will damage them in the future." ^_^ Instead, I'm afraid our relationship just sort of petered out.

But the book idea is a good one, if you can find one. I haven't read the one that is recommended below, but it might be a good chance. Good luck. :-(