Love and Logic Help Needed ASAP!

That's a tough one. Coming up with consequences that are logical can be hard. Maybe something that is the opposite of violence, like he has to do something very nice for/to you, the dog, the baby.
Maybe he is not allowed to play with the dog and/or around the baby for a day (maybe in his room only?)
Maybe he can't have his shoes or things he can throw?
I'm the first to admit - I'm reaching here. I am trying this also. With teens, it gets even more challenging.

How about, "Since you threw your shoes at me, they have to go to time out now, so we won't be able to go outside, go to the park etc until they come out of time out. Now, lets think about what a better choice would have been..."

HA! I just read J C's answer and it really amuses me when someone says "I wouldn't allow him to throw shoes at me" or something else they wouldn't "allow". Basically you are saying that you will keep your kid in a straight jacket in a padded room... nothing to throw and no arms to throw them with! Kids will be kids. Do we "allow" them to misbehave? Only if we don't give them a consequence. But otherwise, short of standing next to them every minute of every day and pinning their arms down when they reach for something to throw (or some other misbehavior), it is going to happen. My 2 year old threw an enormous fit the other day and I immediately picked him up in a time out bear hug and walked him away. My mother-in-law's response was, "You never would have allowed a fit like that from your older son". Ha! like I was encouraging it. How exactly do you stop a rampaging two year from screaming and kicking? I thought restraining him was the best option... but of course, when I asked her how I could have stopped him, she had no answer. So, those of you with the high and mighty "I don't allow it" need to get off your high horse. Your kids have misbehaved just like ours. You haven't been able to stop every little problem from happening before it happened. Don't make other mothers feel bad because of your advice. Just my 2 cents!

I never heard of the Love and Logic parenting system but I think I have a common sense and logical approach to raising kids. So take this advice for what ever you think it is worth...

What do you mean he refused to play in another room? If it was my child they could not refuse...I would pick them up and take them to the other room remaining calm. I would also not allow my child to throw anything at me.
One thing I have learned, my kids are almost 8 and 13, is that when you say something you have to really mean it. If your child was about to run into a busy street what would you do? You would immediately react by grabbing them and preventing them from running to the street. My opinion is you should have reacted quickly and not let him throw anything at you. I read somewhere that if you can train your child not to touch the range because it might be hot you can also teach them not to touch the picture frame on the table:)
Also, your son's immediate consequence was to send him to a room full of toys?!?! Perhaps he would know you meant business if he had to sit in a corner with no toys for 3 minutes. I am also not a fan of punishment just immediate consequences that are implemented and over with quickly. Kids don't have long attention spans.

I loveeee amanda's response, I'm going to use that b/c my daughter throws her shoes at my mom sometimes. It goes so well with the "you went in the street so you have to go inside for a little while" statement I read about. Did he seriously sit on the bed? It sounds like he lost control at that one time if he listened and sat on the bed later, is there a way to teach him how to take deep breaths to get the mean (or bad) stuff out and make the meanest face and say aloud that made me mad or something like that?... like teaching him how to calm himself down when he gets mad... and if he follows through when he gets mad he gets a reward (even if it's a high five and praise or chocolate milk). I don't know what love and logic parenting is (per se), but I can assume what it means so hope this helps.

I agree with leah-maggie g too, I even choose my music carefully when my daughter is in the car because I listen to alot of rap with cursing in it but never when she is in the car (:P).. also with my dad, I had to ask him to never watch south park or family guy if she's around (even some of the history channel stuff is violent), lol.

Four year olds learn this stuff from kids at daycare.

Sit him down and tell him it is not good to do this to you or anyone else. If he goes to hit you cover his hand with your hand and gently put it in his lap. Do not engage in a struggle.

Stone throwing is very serious. Good consequences are no TV. And, then no violent TV shows as children learn what they are shown. Get rid of the Disney channel too often the shows and cartoons are violent.

Just a thought for next time...if the same scenario happens with the dog. Remove the dog from your son, if your son doesn't listen. The dog is a lot easier to control. So, by removing the pup, the fun stops right away and is a logical consequence to the activity. Love and Logic is great, but requires so much thinking on the parent's part. It's often a challenge.

Since he wouldn't listen about playing with the dog safely, maybe the natural consequence is not getting to play with the dog for week.

Another mom showed me a very effective method of stopping bad behavior. She bought a large clear plastic bin & when toys were left out after she ask them to be picked up they went in the bin until the were earned back, not just a specific time. The bin was sealed tight & put in the play area so her children could see daily what they were missing. She also would take away one favorite toy for each kind of violent offense until they truly apologized & did something nice for her to make it up to her for how sad they had made her. "Bummer, I am going to have to take (one toy for each time he did it.) for you throwing shoes, hitting & kicking.
I hope you limit his TV to less than an hour a day. Love & logic says they shouldn't watch TV until they are 6 years & then less than 1 hour a day.

As I see it, he got a natural consequence of the rough play – he had to stop playing. Possibly because he was so engaged in having fun while being near Mom and Baby, possibly because Baby "won" over his getting to play where he wanted, possibly because he was just excited and a little out of control (4yo's do that), your request, though reasonable, hit him wrong. So then he needed consequences for acting out.

Once that moment of anger/outrage strikes a child (and generally an adult, too), listening stops. It's hard for anything else to get through. I'm not "excusing" this, just observing that it's true. In your son's case, his anger led to some inappropriate behavior. I personally find it admirable that you waited and gave yourself a chance to think, AND that your son had calmed down enough to be playing and listening when you went in to talk to him.

You both did some good work there, from your description. (And in my observation, the child eventually comes up with a sincere apology a little later, maybe an hour or a day, when calm is reestablished and a heartful feeling of connection/forgiveness follows.)

You had a couple of options at that point besides just looking for a consequence:

You could have asked your son to talk about his behavior, consider what other options he had, and ask HIM to choose a consequence. Many kids will do an amazing job of this if given a little time and support. My grandson was able to do this by the time he was 3 or so. And many kids will find a consequence that's not only appropriate and creative, but harder on themselves than what a parent might have chosen.

But another option you might consider "next time" would be not to send the rowdy play to another room, but to pause the play and ask him to notice that the baby almost got hurt. You could ask your son right then what HE would do to fix the problem. He could have come up with any number of options that would have met his emotional needs to feel included in, and because the solution would have been his, he would have been invested in making it work.

These techniques are taught in the best parenting book I have ever used, How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk, by Faber and Mazlish. The book is abundant with real-life examples of how parents helped set the conditions for the child to address the problem himself. And though we don't usually think about young children in these terms. they can be creative problem solvers. Plus, kids are more invested in solutions they think of themselves, and are more likely to work at making them a success.

This could be a really useful option for those times when consequences seem to happen too late or are hard to figure out.

Thank you Amanda M! I have four very high spirited young boys ranging in age from 3 to 12. I am often surprised by the "I wouldn't allow it". We have structured consequenses for misbehavior, and I will be honest that really commited kids don't really care. I have watched my 6 year old acknowledge the impending consequence, tell me his future action will be worth the consequence, and go for it. It doesn't matter what the consequence is, and we stick to our guns. We have talked with therapists, child behavior specialists, and they all say the same thing. We are doing it right, and these kids are just really patient, smart, and willing to accept the consequences when they are really devoted to their actions.

Personally, I think the little boy in the original question sounded over tired. It was just time to wrap it up with the rough play, and transition to a more soothing activity. I would have picked up the baby, moved the baby, and set a time limit to the rough play. Then we would have just moved on to something else. With the escalation of behavior, I would have waited for the explosion to end, then have him help me put all the shoes away. You can't really communicate with a 4yr old in the middle of an all out explosion. These things happen. Even if we had to wait until the next day to put the shoes away, I would wait. He should fix the mess, and you can talk about how to prevent it in the future.

-N.

It is too late to give him a consequence now. Four year olds should have immediate consequences. Sitting on his bed without playing for a number of minutes plus not talking to him would have been a good consequence.

More than staying calm is important. Removing your presence both emotional and physical is required.

Time out on the wall, facing it for 15 minutes would have been another but he sounds like he was too wound up to have been able stand it.

lots of great discipline techniques here by Dr. Sears, that from what I understand are pretty close to Love and Logic:

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/T060100.asp

scroll down to 'bothersome behavior" and there is a specific set of tips for the hitting/kicking