People That Have Too Many Kids - Read Before You Get Offended

I can understand poor people having 1 kid. 1 kid - not more than one. We all deserve the right to be parents, but I agree that having more than 1 while on food stamps, etc. is irresponsible.

I second Matisse! My tax dollars are definitely my business!

I have been invited to three baby showers in the past 6 months -- all for unmarried 20somethings who are on all sorts of public aid. They also take off work to go sign up for more public aid, since they're pregnant. All three of these young ladies will not get married simply because they will lose their free ride. They've told me so. Their boyfriends all make pretty good money but they get more from the government, so.....

wow, just wow, at the responses. I so agree with you L., while I think it is great those programs are there and certainly should be used for those that need them. BUT, really when the taxpayers are footing the bill for all those programs, why would anyone consider having another child knowing they are totally dependent on govt programs. If someone loses their job or for whatever reason suddenly needs a program to help them through a rough time, certainly use a program that is suited to what you need, that is what they are there for. I think it is irresponsible to have another child knowing you are already using all types of assistance. If fewer people used those programs or exercised caution, perhaps taxes could be lowered.

Apparently I am in the minority here because like you I think if people can't afford to support themselves now they don't have any business bringing another baby into the picture. And no they are not supporting themselves I and a lot of other taxpayers are supporting them if they receive any of the following
state aid
public aid
wic
food-stamps
medicaid
daycare financial assistance
free lunches
IHEAP or any other utility assistance

I am not against someone needing help. Everyone does need help sometimes as another poster stated. However needing help sometimes is not the same as already being on monthly state assistance and choosing to add another child to the mix who will need medical / dental / education and lunches at the tax payers expense. If you can't already afford without the states help to feed / clothe / and provide medical care for the children you have you should not be having any more.

Initially I wasn’t going to respond to this post because all this makes me so sad especially after reading responses from those that get aid that could afford to live without it or had more children because they could get aid.

My DH and I had our first child when I was in my late 20’s. We stopped at just one because we could live comfortably. We could not have afforded to have another at the time. I didn’t have a job and my DH was already working his tail off. SO we decided to wait until we were financially ready for more. That didn’t happen until 8 yrs later and we never applied for ANY AID OF ANY FORM.

We now have 2 kids who are far apart in age, financially well off and very happy. However, now that I’m in my 40’s we will not be having any more children and when I think about that I want to cry.

Shoot I could have been one of those Moms that went ahead and had more children right away and just gone on financial aid. By now I could have had 4 kids like I had always dreamed.

You know what though, I have more pride than that and I would rather have a child because I COULD AFFORD TO TAKE CARE OF MY OWN BABY and not depend on the rest of you who work your buts off to do that for me. It’s incredibly frustrating to me when I read that someone CAN afford to NOT be on financial aid or whatever, but do it anyways because they can get away with it.

If I was that person, I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night…

That’s just me.

O.K. I’m done now =-)

If you have children and are on public assistance then by definition you can't afford your kids - cause if you could I wouldn't be paying for them.

If you are in that situation it is irresponsible and selfish to have more kids. It is irrelevant whether or not your family feels complete, or how many kids you dreamed you'd have when you grew up, or that you have all girls and want a boy, or that you want to be a SAHM, or whatever reason you can dream up to justify having more. Life happens, and it often doesn't turn out the way we want and we don't get everything we want. Be thankful for the kid(s) you do have, but for heavens sake don't have any more!

I'm glad to see most people agree with you. I certainly do. People saying it's none of my business is just stupid. If I'm paying taxes to support these babies, how is it not my business? It's my hard earned money. Explain that. I won't repeat what many people have put so well already. Those of you having kids you can't fully support and think it's ok, it's not. By saying it's ok, you're saying you're so special that you don't have to have the money to pay for your children. The rest of us are so unspecial that we not only have to pay for our own children (bc of course you're not) we have to work to pay for YOUR kids. How is that logical unless you're delusional? You're freeloaders and you think it's ok. If there's an unfortunate life change after a family has kids and they need assistance for awhile, that's different. That's not what people are criticizing.

Its called 'working the system' and it is a way of life for some people. Where you and I will get a job and work hard to support our families-they get busy and have babies to support their families. The more babies the more support. And we are subsidizing it.

I am just shaking my friggin head reading some of these answers right now. It is tough right now for just about everyone. My husband got laid off about 1.5yrs ago and has finally got a great job. I was partially laid off this past year and made too much to collect unemployment. My son has special needs and I have to drive him an hour to his bus stop every day and I do not get any assistance. My son qualifies for some things however I feel too guilty and essentially I am taking money from my own paycheck anyway if I were to get assistance. My DH and I would love to have another child but we are trying to pay our debt down before we do so. We are acting responsibly. We could have followed the group of crazies that used their home equity have new cars, updated home etc. now being forclosed on because Instant Gratification was their goal. Not ours. We can't seem to save much because we are stuck paying HUNdreds of dollars toward our medical bills, groceries and gas on our credit cards. I do resent the people who say they wont marry because they will loose their free ride. I resent people to do not strive in life and just settle. Is this the example they want their kids to see as a responsible adult?? That is why the middle class is constantly teetering to poverty and the rich get richer! The rich aren't the problem. Without the rich we wouldn't have the jobs and money being spent in our economy with the exception of necessities. By the way they do pay taxes too which helps the assistance. I do not have a problem with people using it for what it was originally put in place for, as I have seen written in other posts, to get back on your feet. It is not supposed to be a way of life and living. How disrespectful and ignorant these people are! There is so much in my life that I can take pride in, sad some people don't know the meaning of pride. It's a great argument that you want to raise your children yourself but what about once they go to school? I'm sure some will still be folding laundry and watching Maury. Be responsible for you and your own family. Be accountable for your own actions and decisions. If you are on public assistance, everything you do should be under a microscope. People who have their own medical insurance have now been put under a microscope and can't use their tax free money they have earned toward over the counter drugs, but a mother on assistance can get her nails professionally done and walk right up to a grocery store clerk and hand them food stamps. Again the people who aren't abusing the system and are using the benefits the right way I have no issue there. Sorry for the ranting but it is disgusting to me and we should all have the right to share an opinion.

The reason this country is so rediculously in debt is because of the entitlement programs that are so corrupt and abused.
Venting on mamapedia feels good and validates your frustration but I'm challenging you to do more. Write a handwritten letter to your elected officials in congress and let them know how badly entitlement programs need to be overhauled.
I have a feeling that most people on this blog are hardworking Moms, whether at home or at an office and don't appreciate all the people who take advantage of government programs. Having more children when you have to rely on other hardworking Americans to support you is just plain irresponsible and selfish.
Your voice can make a difference - let it be heard!

Now that there are more responses, I have to add that first money doesn't just come "rolling in". It is worked for and earned. And if you can't get your financial house in order by the time you are 40+ then you should seriously reconsider your ability to be a good role model to any child.
Second, sorry Jamie J. but you are the reason for my response. I cannot grasp why you would be on aid programs when you openly stated that you CAN afford to pay your child rearing expenses. Why do I have to pay for your child's lunch and medical care when you can pay for it yourself? I pay taxes too - and I am still paying off student loans (almost 20 years after graduating) that allowed me to be a contributing member of society.
We have to make sacrifices when we have children - giving up some 'wants' and living with just 'needs' is a good place to start.
There is nothing wrong with having a child and then realizing that you are having problems making ends meet, but choosing to have a 2nd, 3rd or 4th is just selfish and irresponsible.
I also am not a mean cruel person. I was in a situation once when I was younger when I couldn't even afford toilet paper. I worked harder and had even more motivation to graduate from college. I understand when people end up in circumstances beyond their control (losing a job, divorce, etc) that require state and federal assistance to help bridge the gap temporarily, but making aid programs your way of life and means is completely unacceptable and again - this country is in a financial crisis because of this!

i would fight vociferously against legislation aimed at preventing people from having babies if they want them. but as a taxpayer and a fiscal conservative, i too get pretty resentful of people feeling....well.....entitled to entitlement programs. they're supposed to be an emergency leg-up, a safety net, not a way of life. one of the skills adults are supposed to develop is living within one's means, and that means being thoughtful and mature about how many children one can provide for. some of the most creative, laughter-filled loving homes are those below the poverty level. it's no judgment on one's parenting ability. but being a terrific parent doesn't necessarily mean that one should have more kids.
the middle-class back is breaking.
khairete
S.

The least of my worries about children in this country are whether or not my taxes go to pay for their healthcare and food. I accepted WIC and foodstamps at any point in my young children's lives when I could not work. We are eligible now, but doing fine and I can work (and do), so we aren't getting them. Unfortunately, many of our "professional" plans did not pan out over the years. So we are still stuck in low income (though fulfilling) jobs, but have lots of time for our kids. They still receive healthcare through a medicaid HMO, and probably will for a while, unless one of us gets hired by a company that offers heath insurance.

Even if I made a million bucks a year and paid half of that in taxes, I would never begrudge ANY family from using any of the free-low cost healthcare programs that my taxes would pay for, as I consider it a human right, not a privilege for being a "good patriot" or some other bullsh*t straw man thrown out there to pit people against each other. I'd rather see a mom at home taking care of her children and receiving food stamps than seeing her work FT in a crappy minimum wage job to pay for food and missing out on her young children's lives. And trust me, food stamps are a "hand up" not a "hand out", there is no way any family could use only foodstamps to pay their entire grocery bill for a month.

Corporate welfare is a far larger problem, I'll save my wrath for those benefiting from a system that rewards companies for using subsidies, not to pay their employees more, but to pay the upper management bonuses.

Some of us have a lot of love to give but not a lot of money. Some of us had plans that crashed with the last economic crash. Some of us have been laid off or lost businesses through no fault of our own. Some of us provide child care for friends who choose to work. Some of us choose jobs that don't provide heath insurance, but do improve the quality of life for others and/or better fit our own lives so we can take care of our own children instead of sticking them in day care.

Theoretically I *could* slam moms and dads that both work FT and put their kids in day care 10 hours a day from age 6 weeks on just so they can live in a bigger house and have nicer vacations. But it's not my place to judge how other people raise their kids, and I'm sure those parents love their kids and go to great lengths to make sure their children are well taken care of, but I could ask the same: "WHY would they have more kids they don't want to take care of/just hand over to a nanny/barely see because of their job..." But because they don't receive food stamps or WIC, it's in bad taste to ask that question.

Growing up, I remember Christmases with very little as far as gifts. There were nights we ate beans and rice b/c that's all my mom could afford that week. I got discounted lunches at my Catholic school. But I never felt unloved. Unless you grew up in a loving poor home, you can't possible see how much more it means to a child to have mom home when you get home from school than if you go to Disney World for Christmas.

If you have nothing better to do than judge people for having less you have too much time on your hands that would be better spent volunteering at a soup kitchen or homeless shelter. Or do what I do and substitute teach in a public school system. Get in the trenches and do something to help people instead of looking at their lives from the outside and feeling smug about your own situation.

edited to add:
My kids will be the first ones to tell you they don't feel "poor". And we "poor" people can teach our kids culture, you don't need to be rich to be smart, educated, go camping, or speak in several languages. You don't need to be middle class to feed your kids green curry one night, Cuban Hash the next, and salad every day, while discussing the influence of the French on Vietnamese cuisine, the latest State of the Union Address, and the rebellion in Egypt (all true stories from my dinner table).

I am not offended by your post..Aid programs are good for those who fall on hard times and need a boost to get back on their feet. That's a good thing...However, it should not be a way of life nor should additional children be added to a home that is struggling. They are adults and should be mature and intelligent enough to manage their household. Some posts below say it is none of your business...In many ways that is correct however, when it comes to using our tax payer $$$ it becomes our business. America needs to stop being an entitlement country!

Good question. I agree with you. I think some of the responders read too much into your question. You were not judging poor families that were supporting their own children. You are specifically talking about those who are not supporting their own children already and are choosing to add to their family anyway. There is a big difference. A poor family who is at least supporting their own children can talk about how they have so much love etc and the material things don't matter. At least they are providing for their families needs but just have nothing left for the “extras.” Those that are not supporting themselves and choosing to add to their families are completely selfish and irresponsible. They are selfish because they want another child and don’t care enough about the fact that child is THEIR responsibility to feed, clothe, house etc…..it is not the government’s responsibility. Those programs are supposed to be temporary assistance to get you through a hard time...not supplemental income.

Also, where did you actually suggest sterilizing poor people? I was surprised by how many assumed that is where you were going with your post. I agree with you that you just expect people to have common sense. Just because babies are wonderful does not mean you should bring one into the world that you can not care for…..and yes, LOVE is the most important thing that you can give to a child but that does not mean you are not responsible for feeding, clothing and housing your baby on your own dime.

On the flip side of your question, what makes people keep having kids who DO have the "means" to take care of them, but not the time and love? There are all different kinds of ways kids can "suffer" - whether it be, as you say, no Christmas or a box of mac and cheese for dinner, or having absentee parents who can well afford the children, but don't spend time with them or are emotionally distant from them. The bottom line for me, anyway, is that each and every child brought into this world should be wanted and loved. Above and beyond that, I reserve judgment on the choices other people make.

This is a really loaded question and the responses are really interesting.

While I can see both sides of the argument, there are times when it's incredibly frustrating to be seriously considering whether or not I should buy my son a pair of Stride Rites or sneakers from Payless while my students are on "free lunch" in brand new Nikes. What??

Here's how I look at it... life is about choices and living with the fall out of those choice. We choose to live within our means, if not below. As a result, we have chosen to live in a smaller house, have one t.v., two cars that are 7 years old but PAID FOR, plan our children so that I can take FMLA leave w/o putting us in "crisis" and all of our bills are paid on time. We own quite literally everything we have, with the exception of our home which is mortgaged.

In doing so, we have little financial stress and have money to go and do things that build memories and connections. We are healthy b/c we have balanced meals on the table every day and travel to see family and friends whenever we like. My children will have experiences and culture that will carry them far. MOST IMPORTANTLY... we are modeling that lifestyle for our children. My son (and future children) are learning from us how to save, invest and spend wisely.

I know that many people will say "I couldn't help it, my parents..." Well, make a different choice. I have encouraged my students (when I was working in a school) to look at the way they are living and ACTIVELY make choices to do things differently.

My husband grew up in a household where they barely made ends meet and have several mortgages on their home- not welfare, but pretty darn close. He made an active choice at a young age to make different decisions... studied, worked hard starting at 15, saved $$, lived below his means in college and right after... choices, folks.

What makes you think that they can't afford their kids? Just bcause someone receives public assistance (in any form) does not mean that they can not support their families. We have four children. All of whom were born via Medicaid. We received WIC with our first two, and qualified with our other two, though we chose to not use it. We even received food stamps for a short time after our second and after our third were born (for about 8 months each time). When our first two were born, we both worked and made decent money (for our area anyway). Shortly before we became pregnant with our third (a planned pregnancy), I stopped working and became a SAHM. My husband and I were not yet married, so I was not covered on any health insurance. We could afford our children just fine and asked for no hand-outs. We were even planning to pay out-of-pocket for our third pregnancy and delivery. I was referred by my OB/GYN to the DJFS when she learned that I was uninsured. Turns out, they have a program specifically for my situation. I didn't go and ask for it, it was brought to me. I applied and did so with all honesty. I qualified. Funny thing about the program is that everyone in my family was also covered after that point. I didn't ask for that, but in order for me to retain the coverage that they had offered, I had to accept the coverage for the rest of the family. Could we have made it work without the insurance? Sure, we had already saved and planned for that. Did having that coverage make our lives just a little less stressful? You bet.

Please stop being so judgemental about something that you think you know all about, but you likely know very little about. Most people are not proud of the fact that they receive public assistance and therefore do not talk very openly about it with many people.

Also, let me assure you that if those children are being loved, cared for and not neglected or abused...if they have a warm home and clean clothes that fit properly and food on the table, they are not suffering. Just because these people do not live by your standards does not mean they are doing wrong by their children.

Bottom line is that my take is mind your own business because you likely know nothing about their situation.

EDIT TO ADD:: My children all STILL receive Medicaid as a secondary insurance, and my older two children receive free lunches at school. Can we afford these things that are being given to us via these programs? Yep. But you know what?? We also pay (and always have) about $30,000 in taxes each year, so I don't feel one bit guilty about accepting assistance from the programs that we help support. My taxes surely wouldn't decrease if we were paying those medical bills or for those school lunches.

I have nothing against large families. And I have nothing against people needing help when times are rough. But I agree that if you can't afford to have another baby and support it yourself (ie without food stamps, medicaid, etc) then you shouldn't plan to have a baby. I understand there are accidents and I don't begrudge a family who are on assistance and have this happen, but if you're getting state aid and plan to have a baby, please realize that you're not supporting your baby, I am, as are other tax payers. I would love to have a third kid, but we can't afford to support a third on our own so are not having another at this time. We can barely afford the two we have and have been struggling big-time with the recession, but won't take aid. Like you, I don't get why other people don't feel the same way. A child needs more than just love. Hate to say it, but it's true. Sorry if I've offended, but it's the way I feel.

A.

Wow lots of responses! Of course people have a way to support their children. Us. WE who pay our taxes. that's why this subject is so emotional because we moms who do all the cleaning, cooking, grocery shopping, who read to our children every night and play with them every weekend and chauffer them around as needed AND work 40 hours a week have to also support the moms who cant work because they have kids. I dont believe anyone is paying 30,000 in taxes and is eligible for aide, better get your taxes done by Hand R block this year, you should be qualify for tax breaks. L. is not talking about people whose situation changes and need temporary assistance. I collected WIC for a two years after a divorce when I had no child support and a job that paid poorly but had benefits She's talking about people who are relying on us to pay for her children and then decides to make another child knowing we will all have to help pay for their food and medical expenses. Yes, everyone has the right to have a large family despite the hundred thousand orphans in the world who will never have a family cuz no one cares to adopt them. And many people do raise wonderful children on Very little money. But I believe that people who DECIDE to have a child when they need other people to support their children are rarely going to be good parents, they are already bad role models, and are teaching them to make excuses for why they cant support themselves. I waited 11 years after child #2 to even think about child # 3 because I wanted to have job security to pay for his her food, etc and a house in a nice neighborhood. Turned into 14 years before we got the third child I always wanted. I wish I had more time to clean my house when the kids are at school or could attend their field trips and holiday parties but I have the satisfaction of knowing MY tax money will help those who need help.

We are on a some state aid right now due to my husband's job loss and only being able to find one that pays pretty low - but I am NOT offended at your post AT ALL. We make SURE we don't get pregnant again, even though I would LOVE to have another child, for exactly the reasons you list. We have done everything in our power to cut monthly expenses, and are still struggling - and this is a PERFECT reason to hold off on having more kids. I need to take care of the kids I have before thinking of having any more. I do not understand the mentality that anyone deserves to have as many kids as they want, and the only thing a kid needs is love... this is just incorrect. Parenting isn't about yourself, it's about the KIDS!

*sigh* Sensitive subject to be sure. I am generally just fine with paying for someone to have one baby. Babies can be such a blessing (one I would not want to deny any loving parents regardless of finances) and after all, my taxes go to support things far more repugnant to me than children.

BUT...! After the first one, I really don't feel so super awesome about an adult in effect saying to me and all other tax payers -- "I can't afford another kid so you can pay for it instead. My right to have more children trumps your right to leverage your tax dollars in a more fiscally responsible manner."

Wow, I haven't often seen a post which got responses that insulted such a large population of us mamas. I myself am a full-time working mom, married to a full-time working man... The extent of the government assistance we've ever needed was my husband's college loans. We are blessed; we remind ourselves that everyday. But according to some responses, I shouldn't have had kids because we send them to daycare...

Such self-righteous, defensive attitudes out there in mama land today.

Sorry, can't post more. Gotta get back to work--so I can get paid and they can take out the taxes some of y'all live off. Remember that the next time some of y'all SAHMs backhand insult the working moms...

Personal choice and personal responsibility are large concepts for people to grasp. You CHOOSE not to have another b/c you have no interest in using public aid. That's YOUR personal choice and personal responsibility.

I've never received any type of assistance or aid but I really don't feel this is anyone's business.

Yes, there is a difference between a hand UP and a hand OUT.

But also you cannot put a price tag or restrictions on love and family.

You are walking a very slippery slope of philosophy and society here: this is the rhetoric of "only Class A is allowed x# of children", etc.

This is a touchy subject for most.
On the one hand, who is anybody to tell another they shouldn't have more children.
On the other hand, what gives someone the right to have a child they can't support.

To me, I guess I kind of feel there is a bit of middle ground here. To me, it is not understandable for someone to have more kids they can't feed...but I don't see a whole lot 'wrong' with having another child on medical assistance. My reasoning is that, even though some people may be pretty comfortable, medical insurances/procedures are outrageously priced! All of the darn sue happy people in this country have made affordable insurance nearly impossible for the average Joe to obtain.

I guess I have more trouble understanding people who are too proud to ask for help that could help their kids than I do the ones who obviously just want a free ride...I have a cousin who hasn't had electricity in her house for almost a year because she refuses to ask for help, her 2.5 yr old son is living in those conditions! I have more trouble with THAT and wish she would just at least look into what programs there are in place.

general information: I received food stamps for 2 months back in 04, and had medical assistance (family planning, BC only for me) from 98 until 05

I know what you mean! When I work so hard to support my family, I don't understand people who seem to want to breed for a living. It's like paying taxes to support this is like taking food out of my child s mouth.
In some countries, aid is only given for only so many. If more kids are had after that, the aid starts getting cut. With budgets being cut all over the place, perhaps we need to think about starting to do this in our US welfare system.
If you can afford to care for a large number of children, have as many as you want. If you can't afford it - don't be expecting other people to keep paying for you to keep having more kids.

I'll be honest, I didn't read all of the response, but here's my opinion. Yes, you all have your opinions, but raising children isn't about buying your children. My mother and father raised my brother and I working 2 jobs each, on medicaid, didn't have a christmas, didn't have the latest Wii system, oh, and didn't have my super sweet 16 birthday parties. Basically, we weren't spoiled brats. But what did my parents give us? Time, confidence, we strived to want the larger things in life because they weren't handed over to us on a silver platter. We grew up knowing what struggling was, knowing what it was like to make ends meet. Thankfully, as we grew older, my father became a succesful entrepreneur and my mother has been working in the school system for 18 years now. My brother is a succesful lawyer in Washington, D.C. and I received my Master's in Education at the age of 23 with high honors. I am now a stay at home mom of 3 children and my husband is a doctor. Although I have the money to buy my children the best game systems, the best toys, the best of everything, I am sticking to the basics. Because I want my children to know that life is not all about games and entertainment, that there are people out there less fortunate.
The only time I agree with L. is if they are not taking care of their children and just popping babies for whatever reason. But not having enough money is never a reason to not have children, as long as you find a way to give them the love that they need and to keep them safe. Which, unfortuately, there are a lot of.

I see this a lot since I manage a govt subsidized apartment complex. I have one mom here that has 4 kids, all 4 from different dads. This is America tho, home of the free to pretty much do whatever works for ya. You really don't know how the kids will all turn out but a lot of times kids from desperate situations rise above and beyond kids that were born with a silver spoon in their mouth.
It is not the kids fault they were born. Yes, we taxpayers do help feed them. I don't see any quick fixes to the problem tho so I guess we continue to deal with it. My girls here on welfare are actually all quite sweet, respectful girls, they are just uneducated and fall for stupid men that get them pregnant and run off and leave them holding the bag.

Hi L.
Sorry I DON'T AGREE.
The main for me is that the kids are in a secure ,loving home and the rest is their business.
I have never had any government aid. I would not think for one second that would give me any right to judge people who get aid.
B.
Ps These people are supposed to be friends and you are writing this post about them.
PPS Fantastic point Margaret V.

There are so many things that are MUCH more important than money when choosing to have more children or not.
If they are good, loving, disciplining parents then I pray they have many more children!
You can't wait until you have what you believe is enough money or you will end up having children very far apart, or not at all. Things will get better for them financially, but they will always regret it if they don't have children because of money.

Here's where we stand as a family keeping in mind that I grew up with 1 sister and hubs grew up with 2 brothers AND 2 sisters besides himself:

We got married 2 days after my 22nd birthday had our son 8 months later & our daughter 17 months after that when we were 24. Then we stopped. With 2 kids and both of us working full-time we struggle and always have, but we love each other. I desperately wanted more kids, a little less now that our baby is about to be 10 next weekend, but still, if I had the opportunity I know I would take it for another.

When we were 26 I really started asking hubs for another and he always just said no, we were done so I stayed on my birth control hoping he'd change his mind eventually. A couple of years after that I asked him what his reasoning was for refusing any more kids. He said, "Melissa, we have 1 boy and 1 girl. Both of them are healthy, smart, funny & beautiful. We have nothing left to prove to the world. I refuse to have more kids than we can afford to take are of. That's how I grew up and it's just no way to live and not fair to any of us. Our family is just perfect the way it is." When he put it like that I not only completely understood, but totally agreed with him. We have never been on Medicaid, or WIC, or any other government help aside from state unemployment when I lost my job for a few months.

Anyway, my point is that I agree with you. If you can't afford the kids, don't have them. Period.

I understand your frustration. I don't know why either. To each is own.

I have mixed emotions. I totally see where you are coming from. I am pregnant with my third, we didnt plan it, but were fully aware that it could happen. My husbands job hasnt been stable for years, and now Im almost 7 months pregnant and he is out of a job. We have other resources and are still doing ok, never been on any kind of assistance and probably never will. Is it the best time to have a baby? Probably not. But does that mean I dont deserve my baby? I am sure people have it set in their mind how many kids they want. If its your life long dream to have 3 kids, in the long run, it really only matters how they are raised, not their bank account. Yes, I think they could probably get SOME of their stuff straight before adding another mouth to feed. But whether or not they deserve another baby is no ones choice, its Gods. Do you feel a little resentment because you want another baby? Im not trying to be rude, but we have friends that are in a huge financial mess, and all they can talk about is their vacations they are planning. Am I resentful? A little. But its their life.

Some of the greatest people have come from a large poor family. I don' t get it either, but it is not for me to judge.

Ok, had to chime in here. I guess I would be one of these selfish, irresponsible moms who work the system. I get it that maybe some people milk the system but it's not always like that. Actually I worked for half my life now and have paid into the system. I've been a SAHM for a little over four years now and had my two girls while on medicaid, it was a lifesaver after being laid off from my job of 14 years unexpectedly and while being 4 months pregnant. That's why it's there isn't it, to help in times of need? To those who qualify? I'm also on wic. It just helps to have that little bit of help. We don't buy expensive clothes, we shop thrift stores or clearance. We would probably qualify for food stamps also but I figure we're doing OK, sometimes a little tight but not so much that we need to apply for food stamps. Another point, we were married in the catholic church where the pastor and pre-counseling talk about not preventing children but being open to having children. Nothing about having a certain amount of money before having children. Furthermore, if I held off until we were financially secure (whatever that means) I would be past my childbearing years. I wasn't raised rich, my mom was a single mom and yes she was on welfare (which by the way didn't even allow her to take college courses), maybe I don't know what I'm missing by not having a lot of money but we are rich in other ways. Anyway, just thought I'd put in my 2 cents.

I have some friends in a similar situation, same number of kids and wanting another and on all the assistance you described. I look at it like this, yeah, they are receiving all that help now, but this is a season. A child is a lifetime decision. I mean they are a great family, love their kids, spend time with them etc. So any other child they bring into their lives will be loved, adored, welcomed etc. I do think this is a family that is working hard and growing in ability to increase their finances in the future etc. So I just wish them the best you know and focus on the positive fact that they are good parents. If they decided not to have a child and in 10 years are in a totally different financial situation, they cannot go back in time to have that child. Circumstances change, but a child is forever. So I understand why someone in tight finances would have another child. A person changes the course of history permanently, money comes and goes. Your question has some merit in some situations, but the underlying issue of why a family with very low means would choose to conceive is possibly short sighted. I definitely don't have all the answers either but a married couple should always have the right to choose the size of their family in my opinion. I mean what about families with oodles of money who only have one child or no children, are they selfish? I don't think so. I do see many problems in our economy as well, don't know how to solve them either but I still don't think in a negative way about people having the amount of children they want to complete their family.

The truth that no one wants to hear is that if you have more than 2 kids you are contributing to the world's human overpopulation problem. Keep reading before you put your wall up and judge. This is leading to species extinction, environmental degradation and all sorts of other bad, scary things. Things that won't effect us so much but will have an enormous impact on our kid's lives. We are not educating ourselves and very irresponsibly are leaving them with a planet full of problems. I wish this was not true, but the days when we could have lots of kids and not collectively suffer consequences for it are over.

More info here: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/overpopulation

Life is about the LOVE - NOT Christmas, and all of the material things that you can give your kids. We americans want to give our kids everything, and while I understand that notion, there are really so many things that we can do without. Seriously, a box of Mac n Cheese for the whole family for dinner, may not be a substantial meal in our eyes, but again, as americans, we over eat. We DO NOT need the portions that we have become accustomed to. Do I think that is a "healthy" meal - no - but there are lot of people who would make 4 boxes of Mac n' Cheese for their family for dinner and everyone would have their own box and would have "more" to eat, but it still would not be healthy. It is their family, and they can make decisions as to what works for them.

Personally, I think that if you are waiting for the perfect time to have another kid, it's never going to happen. There are always going to be obstacles in our lives, you just find ways to navigate them the best you can.

I agree. I have seen this also.

It depends on the mindset of the family.

Some people are so in love .... (blah blah blah)
Some people purposely do it to get or continue support. Although there are now restrictions for if you keep doing this you actually get less.
Some people can't afford the protection but they take the gamble anyway.

As for the whole family sharing a box of Mac n Cheese as a meal, there's nothing wrong with that. Food is food. Its Hamburger Helper without the hamburger. Mac n cheese w/ peas is one of our favorite meals.

Couldn't agree more!!!!!!!!!

I think what some has missed is that even with the assistance they are getting (Medicaid, food stamps, WIC, etc) they are still not able to put a sufficiently proper meal on the table. There is nothing wrong with getting the assistance if you need it, that is what it is there for AND everyone has a tough time now and again. I do have to agree with L. that if things were already that tight and getting tighter (more children = more expenses) I would refrain from having another until I was capable to at least feed them properly. I don't mean material things or excesses but the necessities. But it is not our place to judge.

Wow, this is a loaded question with lots of loaded responses!

People like this feel like they DO have the means to support their many children. If they need food, they just go use their food stamps. If they need to go to the doctor, they go and use their Medicaid. It gives them the false impression that they ARE able to support their children.

Growing up, I came from a family just like this. My parents received every type of assistance there was. I remember the shame I felt as I pulled out my "free luch" card in the cafeteria. The other kids called me "poor" all the time. As an adult, I am proud of the fact that I have never been on any assistance. I have worked hard to overcome my childhood, and my child will (hopefully) never know what its like to be that kid. I would work 5 jobs before I let my child use the free luch card. My child will never see me pull out a food stamp card at the check out line. Not just because of the shame in it (and I mean the shame I felt as a child - not that people who use these programs should feel shame), I also want to show my daughter that we work hard for what we have. I want to instil a work ethic in her.

But on the flip side, if my parents had not continued to have babies while on assistance, I would not be alive. So its hard to say. There really is nothing you can do to change the system, so its better to not let it annoy you. People are going to do what they want, no matter how much it bothers others!

I agree with you 100%. We too only have 1 child, we don't get any help what so ever. We got food stamps for 2 months when my husband broke his leg a few years ago due to us not having any income coming in. I would love a house full of children, but like you said I am thinking about there future. I would rather have one and be comfortable, than have 2 and need the government to help me raise and provide for my kids. However it kills me to no end, that we bust our butts to provide 100% for our family, and pay taxes for the government to take care of everyone else's kids. If they would put a stop to how easy it is to take the easy route we wouldn't be in the shape we are now with the economy. They get free food, there bills paid, free insurance, a free cell phone.......everything is handed to them. There should be drug test, time limits ect. Thanks for bringing up a great point!!!!

It's complicated, I'm sure. I'm a low-income mother of 2. I drive a new car, and have medicaid. I have a new car because I needed something that wouldn't break down out of the blue and cost me an arm and a leg. My previous older vehicle averaged 5k a year in repairs- and no, I'm not a retard woman who gets scammed at the shop. The 5k in repairs my vehicle averaged is now 1/2 what I spend a year on car payments. My car hasn't broken down since, and I find the reliability worth every cent.

Here's the kicker- before I moved to Colorado I worked at a GOCO facility and had top level clearance. I moved and I couldn't find a "good" job. I have 2 degrees, and the best job I could get when I moved was as a call center worker. When I got pregnant and tried to return from FMLA leave my position had moved an extra 50 miles away from my home, and I was written up as "quitting" becuase they wouldn't honor my legally protected rights returning from approved FMLA leave. I've been out of work for 3 years now. I can't afford to put my girls in daycare with the kinds of jobs I'd get these days. It wouldn't make sense. I'm sort of caught in a little trap at the moment- if you can understand that.

The current economy is scary, and it's easy to say "this is what I would do if I were in those shoes" when you aren't in those shoes. It's also easy to look into someone else's glass house and think you have all the answers- when truly, you don't.

This isn't exactly the life I had planned for myself- but I'm making it work as best I can.

Love is an action you choose to fulfill. Compassion, patience, and loving support sometimes make all the difference in a person's ability to lift themselves out of poverty. Instead of giving handouts- why don't you help them find a way out of poverty. Likely- they don't realize it's feasibly escapable.

I am due with baby #6 in a couple of weeks. I am a sahm- we have a very tight budget but have recently been able to become debt free!(HOORAY!) We have one car, do not do sports or other activities for our kids(except scouts) we don't go out to eat and we shop at re-sale shops and garage sales. I do a lot of cooking at home and not a lot of prepackaged meals. we do a garden. We have been on WIC and Medicaid in the past but are not currently on either. By societies standards we do not make enough money to have 6 kids- and I do get a lot of shocked looks when people find out this is #6. This one wasn't planned- but we are very excited for him!
God has always provided for us when we found out we were expecting. Nothing huge- but always enough that if we are wise with our money we are able to make it. My husband was promoted right after we found out about #2, and then we moved and promoted again with #3 and then moved again with a raise and found out we were expecting #4- same thing happened with #5 and with #6 we have been able to pay off all our debts and that has freed up some money for this one.
Yes, it is frustrating to see someone who seems to not be able to take care of what they have- but even if they didn't have any kids- how different would their situation be? I think that if we had waited until we could afford children- we would still be waiting. When we had our first- we were just a year married and making about $800 a month( I still have no clue how we did that!)
I guess what I am trying to say is that even though you see what you see with these people- you still don't know their situation- maybe these kids are getting all they need to be some awesome leaders when they grow up- something they wouldn't' have learned had they grown up in a home that had everything. Really- look at Paris Hilton- maybe she would have turned out better had her parents been on food stamps instead! :)
~C.

Ladies, if you feel so strongly about people being more aware and conscious of the number of babies they are having, take a minute to go write to the senate, because for these low income women there are not many options for birth control and abortion if they don't want the baby, and the house has proven today that they don't seem to want them/us to have the choice which as we all know will be MUCH more expensive in the long run.

Not to mention finding safer birth control options, personally I had a stroke because I was taking birth control, it is not something to be taken lightly.

Lots of love to all the mama's and baby's out there getting assistance or not.

I'm sorry but it's really none of your/our business. Seriously, it isn't. If they want kids let them have them. If they receive state aid, it's their business. We will never know how close or when we will be put in the position of needing the "hand out" which is the purpose of "entitlement programs" . For some people believe it or not, it's there way of living, their American Dream LOL and that's their prerogative. How is the kids well-being in danger b/c of aid? Are the kids neglected? They may not have the financial means, but I didn't read anywhere stating there is no love for their children. Let the live the way they want to live and count your blessings that you are not in their shoes.

I grew up the oldest of 6 children and with a mom who ended up being divorced 2 times and then a single mom. She was on food stamps section8 the whole works. She was a good mom but as kids, it was very hard. I am now 22 and have a family of my own. I have 2 wonderful kids and an amazing husband, I choose not to have anymore kids because I know that if (knock on wood) My husband and I split up I can support those kids and they can still have a good life. I want to be able to pay for my kids college education, send them to school in clean nice clothes, give them the healthiest foods and lifestyle they can live. My own sister (genius) didn't go to college because she didn't think my mom would be able to help her pay for it or anything. I would never want to put my children in a situation where their quality of life is jeapordized because I "wanted more kids" or as my mother would say "I DON'T BELIEVE IN BIRTH CONTROL" But then again if your friend is happy... let her be happy... I had my kids young and am done now :) some people don't like that I had my children when I was 18 and 21 .... Everyone has opinions, but I don't think having a child shouldn't be an opinion or "if it happens it happens" type of thing.. you should really really analyze the situation before deciding to have a lot of kids.... not everyone will get the reality show like 19 kids and counting either .... lol

So my family who is in medical school for 10 years shouldn't have any children until those 10 years are up, even though they will be able to pump tons of money into the tax system later in life?

People have life goals, children are included in those. If those children are loved, well cared for and the family has a plan, I don't see the problem with hard working couples to begin a family and receive assistance so long as having children isn't the families 'source of long -term income'.

All babies are blessings, for sure.
I was miraculously blessed with two after being told for years I would never know the joy of being a mother. I am one of those people that would have had many children if I could have. It was not meant to be for me. I am thankful every day for my two blessings.
I do often wonder why people who struggle to meet the daily financial demands of life continue to have children.
Many years ago, people had numerous children because they didn't have access to birth control or they needed a lot of children to help on their ranches and homesteads.
Times have changed.
I don't know. Kids are so precious. And so dang expensive. I think God knew what he was doing by cutting me off at two. Ten years apart.
I always wanted my kids to have better than I had.
We weren't super poor. Both of my parents worked. We had all the necessities and a pretty good life. But they struggled financially when my sister and I were little. Kids do shoulder that to an extent.
I know people who grew up in ultra wealthy families and are more messed up than the kids who had very little growing up.
We can't make choices for other people and we have no way of knowing how children will turn out in the end.

I have a relative that kept getting pregnant and her doctor finally asked her, when was she going to get her tubes tied? My relative was insulted. But then the Doctor reminded her she had been on welfare even before she was pregnant with the second child, why did she feel it was ok to keep having children and not being able to pay for the children she already had?

As our relative told all of us this, we all sat silently, until my mother said, I agree with the doctor, when are you going to start supporting your family and quit having more children?

This relative never did get her tubes tied, but as a family we all told her we felt she was capable of pulling her own for her and her family. That she was an educated woman, and we knew she could find a job and support her kids.

She still overspends. She has actually made her college aged children upset enough that 1 by 1 they are not speaking with her.. She does not want them to move out so she can charge them for rent, utilities, car insurance.. etc.. But she does not pay her bills properly and the kids are working as hard as possible, they now see that she is just irresponsible.

They are trying to put themselves through community college and she blocks them financially any way she can. We have tried to help them with advice about scholarships and grants, but they are reluctant to go against their mothers advice.. even though she is such a mess. I guess it is hard to break the cycle..

These services are meant for a temporary helping hand, not a life long living.

I will start by saying I agree with you 100%! I do believe that temporary assistance should be available to people in need. That being said...............Unfortunately many, many people rely on welfare, food stamps and all govt assistance as a way of life. That is their income and they have no desire to change it. I personally think their should be strict time limits on assistance- and amounts should decrease as you continue to have more children, not increase! (There has to be consequences)I live close to a workforce office- they offer employent assistance, and tell you how to go about getting govt assistance for EVERYTHING.. Funny thing is anytime you drive by the parking lot is packed full but it is packed full of brand NEW cars and SUV's???? I know situations change and unexpected things happen, I get that. But, your life style and way of living must change as your situations do. Better not get up on my soapbox :)
As someone else stated- get out and vote everytime. If we disagree with our govt we must fight to change it!

I agree to some extent...I have seen people milk the system...and quite frankly, I can see how the system can encourage it...HOWEVER, I don't believe we ever really know another person's story. I used to feel a lot stronger about this...but recently my husband was training for a new job...we decided to have another child...and than in a pre-employment physical we found out that my husband urgently needed open heart surgery for a congenital heart defect. I have somewhat difficult pregnancies (in addition to having young children at home)...and he needed to be able to lift 50-75 pounds to be able to return to work. For anybody that has had open heart surgery knows...that doesn't exactly happen right away - it was over 6 months before he got approval to attempt lifting that kind of weight (or risk cracking the sternum)...and even longer before he actually could. It killed me to apply for assistance...I always kind of looked down on people that were having more kids and on a lot of assistance...and suddenly...at least from the outside looking in...I was one of those moms. Talk about humbling! I don't know how we would have made it without the assistance tho'. It was such an unexpected surgery...my husband is extremely healthy and active. I know that this is not the norm...but...having gone through it...I would just caution being real judgmental...I was dealing with enough emotionally and financially as it was...had someone come up and said something...it really would have hurt. We had savings...food storage...but we're talking an 80,000 dollar surgery and a husband unable to work for 6-8 months...Anyway...just my thoughts!

I have a couple friend that I someone feel the same way about but I'll agree with the other moms that have posted. I keep it to myself because it is no bodies business but their's and the kids are loved better than some of the kids I know come from family with money. They are well cared for and they don't mind going without sometimes so more power to them

Lots of things here that I agree with - very busy thread! *L*
Agree that the corporate welfare needs reigning in as well as the public (personal) welfare. Those that have the entitlement mentality sometimes tend to have the babies to get more $$ on taxes with the child credit/dependent credit - as well as EIC (this needs to be adjusted IMO - something that might be in the works now?) ... it's amazing how much $$ some get back - definitely way more than they paid in - but it needs to be adjusted for those that play the system.

Yes, I have been able to claim EIC for a couple of years - however, I am raising my dgd w/o any support from her parents. (I was actually surprised I qualified for it - they let me know!) I work full time (obviously need to to support her), have her on my insurance tho have paid medical out of pocket before. Have the state insurance as secondary on her - just in case - as had to get her re-instated after parents let it lapse (3rd time) and she was looking at possible surgery and was not then eligible to get on mine. She's in K and goes to after-school care a couple hours a day (she loves playing there - sometimes hard to get her to leave!).

(and I personally know of some that got a good amount back one time - did not use it to support the family, went out and bought electronics)

(also get annoyed when they show the lines of folks signing up for IHEAP, etc w/all their electronics, long nails, etc ....)

Blessings to all!!

added - Sara, I've heard that the student loan folks NEVER give up on getting their money back - and will even wait until folks start collecting social security and such and attach that income!

It sucks that you can't talk to her without offending her because it is such a touchy topic. I'm a loud mouth and probably would be like yo sell that truck and buy some groceries, but my friendships are also open that way. I agree if you can take care of the children good on ya, but if you can't don't have another. One box of mac n cheese for a family dinner? Sorry babe but that is negligence. They can love their children to death but if the children are suffering it is time to get help. Anyways, I know I want like 3 or 4 children, but I know I can easily afford my daughter now because I have the GI bill and grants.. but I know I wouldn't easily afford another child until after my bachelors when I'm settled into my career. I love children, but am responsible enough to know not to bring a child into the world or adopt one without the proper resources to make sure they are healthy.

That's something that I have always ask myself and not only in the USA but all over the world ( well I think only USA helps familys in crisis)...but I see a lot of families so poor and with a lot if kids ( maybe is ignorance ) but I always ask myself why they keep bringing child's to suffer...another thing is some of the best people in history comes from family's like that.....so is no response to your question or mine....;)

I babysat for a young mom who was going to college. She told me she could get us FREE health insurance for our child till she turned 18.
She wanted us to apply for Medicaid and she talked about how she is going to have 3 or 4 more. She quit collge, is not going to repay the loans, works randomly for cash, and gets every benefit and handout she can. She feels it is all free and owed to her.

There are so many other programs (pork) and such that the government gives money to that we don't even know about. I'm much more concerned about that then Medicaid or Food Stamps.

KEEP IN MIND, PEOPLE: While we are the ones that pay for this assistance, WE are the ones that voted for the people that passed these bills for assisting the needy. Actually pay attention, do some research- and vote for the members of congress and our presidents, governors, etc. that you think would be in your best interest and the country's best interest.

...and on your post, I think it is less of an issue about how big a family is, and more of an issue if whether they really NEED assistance or not. It sounds like they do need it, as opposed to people who have the option to take it or not.

Feeling like you are mad at those you do not believe deserves assistance?
If what you are saying about these people are true, then they are simply breaking the law.
If anyone does some research (or for those of you who have been on welfare), there are all kinds of documents (birth certificates, ss card, tax return, proof of income, bank statement, utility bills, mortgage statement, rent statement, proof of loss of income- for EVERYONE LIVING IN THE HOUSE) that you need to provide in order to get the assistance. I read below about 3 un-wed mothers choosing not to wed to get assistance... those mothers are required by law to report any one helping them out financially and also living with them and also the father's income. They are LYING on their applications for welfare. You all also need to check the income requirements to get food stamps, for instance. it is INCREDIBLY LOW. For those of you complaining about people getting assistance and have expensive cars, then either you are ASSUMING they have assistance, OR they are lying on their application! There is no way that they could be telling the truth about their income and other finances, AND be able to actually afford those things.

The government does try hard to get documentation on everything regarding one's needs. They require a lot. My point being, from all this, it is VERY hard to tell that someone who gets assistance actually needs it-from the outside. If they tell the full truth on their applications, then let them be. The program is there for a reason. "cracking down" on those who are lying IS possible- but until they get caught, I feel that they have their own consequences- whether it be by karma, God, or when they hopefully get caught for lying.