Sad & Frustrated - Spring,TX

I've always heard that you can't control or punish bowel movements, as it's the one thing definitively within the control of the child - plus punishment association may lead to associations between normal body functions and shame.

I like what Cheryl had to say too, but I want to suggest that it's not necessarily a bad thing to take away some of her "big girl" clothes / experiences if she won't go on the potty like a big girl. She can't be allowed to ruin her things. Also, if she makes a mess, she should help clean it up. I don't think it needs to be a huge deal or that you need to be mad - just matter of fact about it. If done well, it can be a good motivator - an incentive to shoot for.

She may not be constipated but at some point she had a bowel movement that hurt and she is scared. You need to try to be more understanding.

When she sits on the toilet, make sure she has a stool under her feet to help her feel more secure. Also, give her some stool softeners for a few days so she can experience going poop on the toilet without pain.

Since you have now made the whole situation worse with your yelling, I think you kind of need a new start. Here is what I would do.

I would again apologize and really mean it. Get down to her level, look her in the eye and in your most sincere way tell her you're sorry.

Then suggest to her that you want to help her the next time she has to poop and ASK her if she would PLEASE come to you the next time she has to go so you can go with her to help. Tell her that you're going to give her a stool softener and explain to her what that does. Then give it to her.

Next time she has to go, go in there with her, help her get onto the toilet, put the stool under her feet so she feels secure and she can "push" if she needs to and then hold her hand and BE WITH HER while she does it.

I do understand that this is frustrating, but my GD did the same thing. When he finally HAD to go, it was so hard because the stool had been in the bowel for so long. The purpose of the bowel is to pull the liquid out of the waste which is how poop forms.

So explain to her that the longer she holds it in, the harder it will be and the more pain. Ask her to please trust you and to let you help her the next time.

Ok, I know I will totally get yelled at, but my younger son had a similar problem. The toilet seat cracked and pinched his bum, and he was afraid of the toilet, so he started pooping in his pants. We relaced the toilet seat right away, explained it to him, but he kept pooping in his pants. I was at the end of my rope, and someone gave me the advice of cold showers. Now, I didn't throw him in a cold shower as punishment. I told him when he pooped his pants he needed a shower. I just made sure it wasn't a nice warm shower, just a slightly unpleasant, cool shower. I just told him that we had to wash poop off with cold water. I didn't yell or anything, just matter of factly told a bit of a lie. Anyway, after two unpleasant showers he decided to try the toilet again. It's not my proudest moment, but this is a kid who loves warm baths and showers, and I didn't want him to associate poopy pants with a nice warm bath! It worked, and I haven't seen any signs that he was traumatized by the incident.

Dear God, it is just poop. This is supposed to be natural. Would you want anyone to force you as an adult to go when and if you're constipated, or punish you because you did not have the urge. Come on, you are being unrealistic. I know you would want her to get the gist of it, and that is ok, we all want that of our kids, but you can't rush her development. Just do what you can to help her and let the rest work itself out in time. Don't get so frustrated to the point of punishing her!

Ditto what Cheryl B. said. Eating and elimination are the two areas that a child literally controls. You don't want to turn this into a punishable offense or a power struggle, because it will set up a cycle that eventually does lead to constipation and painful movements. Try the stool softener even if her poop is normal and be supportive. Validate her feelings of fear and let her learn to trust that you'll take a step (the softener) to do something that will ensure that she has no reason to fear.

Good luck.

I don't have any advice to add that addresses the pooping issue. I just want to say, don't beat yourself up about yelling at her. Obviously you realize it was a mistake and you will try not to do it again. Some of the responses were a little harsh in my opinion. Isn't nice to know there are "perfect" moms out there who have never made a mistake and done something to their children they were not proud of?

Make her clean her underwear. Seriously. Tell her "if you're going to make the mess, then you're going to clean it". Don't do it for her no matter what.

Well, yelling for FIVE minutes, that is not just losing your cool. That is being out of control. I'm glad you feel badly about that, because it's inexcusable...but you hopefully seem to realize that. I really think punishing (taking things away) is the complete wrong way of doing this. Fear based tactics, rarely work. IF they do, it's not positive. They are just so darn scared of being yelled at, or getting something taken away...they succumb to whatever you are wanting them to do. She won't LEARN that there is a positive to going in the potty, she will just learn that she'd better. Have you seen a doctor? Holding poop DOES usually have a physical reason, not just a mental one. It's starts being physical, and then turns mental. If it hurt really bad once or she had a bad experience once, she will then be afraid. She Chastising her and taking away favorite things, will NOT make her any less afraid. Be understanding and compassionate. When she does this, have a kind voice. Tell her she simply should come to you, and that you'll do this together.

(Cheryl took the words out of my mouth. I love her advice.) You can't make this into a punishable offense, or she will fear pooping even more, fear you, and will NOT be open to come to you. She is still small, and does not have much control over her impulses. he should not have to be afraid of getting yelled at and losing her most beloved things...over something that genuinely scares her. I feel badly for her :(

Wow - 5 minutes straight? What is the difference between her not being mature enough to poop, and you not being mature enough to handle it without yelling for 5 minutes? She's a 4 year old and you're a grown adult. She feels bad about making you disappointed with her poop mistake and forgives you because you are the adult who holds her life in your hands. Just because she "of course" forgives you doesn't mean that you deserve a pass for having done it, but then again, you are all she has for a mom and will accept ANY punishment you give her for ANYTHING, even if it is totally inappropriate.

You really need to figure out what on earth is making you go off the deep end about her regressions. Until you figure that out, she will continue to regress because she feels the tension in your house from whatever it is that is the REAL culprit for your anger.

Taking away all her dress up clothes and shoes or any other favorite thing is also inappropriate. Being the potty tyrant will not get you what you want with her. You need to be understanding and loving.

Until you figure out that the atmosphere you have her in is playing a part in this problem, it will not get better for a long time. Resolve to stop acting like a 4 year old yourself when you don't get your way about her pottying habits, and talk to the ped about number one, appropriate strategies to use, and number two, a check up to make sure that there isn't a physical problem causing it, or caused BY it.

Dawn

punishing for that is not going to help. Kids can hold it so long out of fear that they give themselves a bowel obstruction (my neighbor did that). They also can have encopresis which results that makes it hard for them to know when the need to go... has your doctor x-rayed her colon and ruled that out?

Of course, yelling at kids is entirely counterprodutive, but sometimes our frustratoins get the better of us. That's forgiveable. Don't punish her for potty issues, though, as it will ony become a control issue that is unlikely to end badly. You need to consult your pediatrician for help on this and perhaps even a juvenile gastrointestinal specialist. Something either physical or mental is hindering this aspect of potty training, and it's not right to be angry with a child for something they really may not be able to help.

Don't punish her for this. She's 4. She's having some issues. Been there done that. She needs support and patience. I had that trouble when I was little, I was scared to go and only went when I couldnt hold it another second.
I did it for several years. It stopped after my grandmother kept me one summer and gave me enemas every couple of days. Since the poop wasnt big anymore, and since it came out easily, I lost my fear of going. Plus I felt so much better. I have to say I did it from about age four until I was about 10....
I probably only went a full stool about once every two weeks but stayed impacted because there was always residual in there. I went to the hospital a couple of times where they gave me an enema to clean me out, but I went back to my regular schedule right afterward much to my moms dismay.
Grandma decided to take matters into her own hands because they were all so worried about me, and I had that one miracle summer at age 10 and no more problems since.
Don't shame her tho, she's sick.

I dont understand how this is not encopresis?
Have you taken this child to a doctor for that diagnosis or are you a doctor?
Yelling at your child is not the right treatment. Ask your pediatricion

From my child development classes, I remember them saying it is normal
for kids to hold in their poop.
A couple of reasons & one being, they are afraid to sit on "that big hole" and drop something of "themselves" (their poop) into that hole.
I would just let her know you're sorry you yelled at her but let her know she does need to try to sit on the toilet to make the poop.
Sometimes they have a hard time telling exactly when they need to poop.
For instance, it takes my child forever to work out that poop.
Too long to have to sit on the toilet.
Just go back to it.
Hang in there.
Work on her w/encouragement.
I know it's hard. Mistakes & regressions happen but it will get better.

My daughter was almost four years old before she was even interested in potty training. I remember getting upset also. So do not beat yourself up anymore. I remember I did ask for help regarding this. I was told to have a party for her favorite doll or stuffed animal that she helps potty train. Let her help you train the stuffed animal or doll. Bake cupcakes together, decorate and make a huge deal out of it. I did this and it worked like a charm. I made sure the animal or doll did a poop....lol and it did not hurt. We had it go pp.After the party she actually wanted a party for herself when she went poop herself. We started to lay off and encourage with simple ways. Before we knew she was trained. She was our first so patients was a must.

OK, it may not be encopresis, but at least once she has had a hard BM, thus is afraid it will hurt again and is refusing to poop to avoid any pain. But, she doesn't understand that the longer she holds it the harder it will become and can lead to encopresis, she is in a vicious cycle, the fact that she has been having "accidents" for over a year shows this. Think about it, if you touch something and hurt your hand, you aren't going to touch it again willingly no matter what. So, she has a painful poop, she isn't going to poop willingly and set herself up for pain. Logically it makes sense to her, but she doesn't understand what she's doing to her poor body.

There is an excellent site in dealing with poop refusers, which she is. I found it when my little guy was refusing to poop on the potty and I was afraid it would lead to encopresis. (It literally took him a little over a day to start running willingly to the bathroom to poop after I began using a tactic I found on the site!) It gives excellent advice on putting the responsibility on the child to use the potty.

And it will help you see things as she sees them, when talking of children who hold their poop, for example, "Many of them believe that they can "turn off" stool production forever. They think the poop will somehow disappear. The standard gastroenterologic explanation for stool holding is that the child is trying to avoid pain associated with passing bowel movements (primary pain avoidance)."

It also recommends disincentives (the removal of a possession or privilege until a behavior improves) for poop refusers, so your taking away the clothes and shoes she loves until she stops pooping in her pants and holding it is a very good move, one that will hopefully spur her to cooperation.

Read all the information, it IS quite helpful.

http://www.rogerknapp.com/medical/pottytrainingrefusals.htm
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You're welcome!

My daughter is a once a day pooper. around ten every morning. my son goes a couple times a day usually in the evening. i know for sure right before bed he is going to go. usually to delay sleeping. Is your daughter a morning "goer" or an evening " goer"? If you notice that she likes to go certian times of the day , before that time go ahead and send her to the potty. go with her. I would try making it a happy thing. From this one post ( i dont live with you so i dont truly know) it sounds like pooping has become a negative thing. She is seeing mommy gets mad when i poop, my things got taken away, and she is scared because she is associating pooping with mommy being frustraited, angery, discusted? (i know i am!) idk really but that might be something you can go back to having fun and making a more positive approach to the poop issue.

That being said I have a four and a half year old son and I would flip my lid if he pooped in his pants (and wasnt sick). To get him fully potty trained we took him to the Houston Zoo (he was three). After a month of no accidents he got to go. I would totally bribe/reward your daughter with a special thing. trip to build a bear, chucky cheese or a new princess dress up clothes?

Set her hinney on that potty several times a day for about twenty mins! you know your daughter best but that seems to be a great amount of time for them to finally give in and go with out her legs getting red potty ring. If no go then she should get up and try again an hour or two later. stickers fun and happy dance when she finally goes. my son would think i was a fool if i were to do all that at his age but prhaps the girl will respond well?