The Vaccine Debate - Flip Side Perspectives ?

I worked with a man at my last job that did not get vaccinated as a child, and lost his leg to polio.

I like you, thank you for putting it so nicely and correctly. One of my friends had Polio and walked with braces her whole life and had huge sores from the rubbing and tearing of her skin. It was incredibly sad.

I can't imagine not vaccinating my kids because some TV/movie star said it was out of style or that it caused some disability or another.

I remember a particular ER episode where a mom brought in her kids who were sick. They had traveled to France and picked up a disease that we vaccinate against. Her kids had measles and died. I thought it was a well thought out and played episode.

You can educate her on herd immunization. Meaning, a few years ago, not vaccinating was somewhat okay due to the vast amount of people who did vaccinate, so there chance of infection was very slim. But now, herd immunity is no longer reliable due to the vast majority of people who do not vaccinate.

"Herd immunity may have also failed nine babies in California this year.
The state's current outbreak of pertussis, or whooping cough, which has sickened more than 6,000 people in the state since Jan. 1, is affecting an area where people are known to refuse vaccines, Offit said. Of the 10 who have died, nine were reportedly too young to have been vaccinated. "

Also, people seem to forget that while they may be alright, there are infants and elderly and those with compromised immune systems and allergies who can not get vaccinated, and they are a high risk, which is another reason why vaccination is important.

You can read more about it here from credited sources, as well as about a little boy who lost his legs and parts of his hand due to being unvaccinated:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40280560

Jeffrey Dimond of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said,. "When a [vaccine rate] drop like that happens, there is often a corresponding rise in the diseases vaccines are supposed to protect us from," he told LiveScience.

In pockets around the country where vaccinations are routinely shunned, the risk of infectious disease can be high. In 2006 and 2009, there were outbreaks of mumps that sickened thousands in the Midwest and East Coast, respectively. In 2008, the United States saw its biggest measles epidemic in more than a decade. And the current outbreak of whooping cough is far exceeding its usual cyclical increase, Offit said.

"It is not okay to say 'It is my right to catch a transferable deadly disease,'" he said, because the decision to avoid vaccination affects an entire population.

Also, Dr. Sears does his homework with catching children up on vaccines and working with delayed schedules and clarifies many misconceptions:
http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/

Well, here's a perspective about non-vaccination from UNICEF:

Mothers can pass on immunity to their babies across the placenta during the final months of pregnancy. The amount of inherited immunity varies by disease and is an important factor in deciding when a child should be immunized. A mother's antibodies may protect a child from measles for 6 to 12 months. But, in the case of diseases such as pertussis, immunity may last only for a few weeks. Tetanus is one example where inherited immunity is critical and the mother must be immunized to offer protection to her newborn.

The more children in a community that are vaccinated, the less likely it is that any children, even those who have not been immunized, will get sick because there are fewer hosts for the infectious agents. This is referred to as “herd” immunity and it is particularly vital with extremely contagious diseases such as measles, where immunization of 90 to 95 per cent of infants is needed to protect a community from measles. However, this is not true for all diseases, such as tetanus, therefore an individual’s vaccination status is important, not just group immunity.

I find this last one interesting because it points to a common misconception...Many people think the diseases we've been vaccinating against for the past century have been wiped out thus making vaccination unnecessary for current generations. Not true. Diseases are kept at bay and this only works when everybody pitches in. So, what the parents who do not vaccinate are saying IMO is..."Well everyone else can get vaccinated and I will just sign up to be among the 5% that can benefit from their risk."

Tell her to tour a hundred year old grave yard. Pay close attention to the dates on the tiny grave stones. If you could ask those children's mothers what they would do if vaccines were available, the discussion would be much different. My grandfather marvelled at vaccines, and cried when he spoke of is baby sister who died at age seven from the measils. In his ninties, he was not over it.

The wonder of modernity actually gives us the opportunity to reject it's gifts.

M.

I have two children with ASD. Is it worse than death? Certainly not. Would I take a cure? Sure. If there was a vaccine, I would get it.

Lets be clear. Vaccinations do not cause autism. Enough money has been wasted highlighting this point. Money that children like mine need to be spent chasing the cure...not finding a scape goat.

Life causes autism. That we live in a modern world causes all kinds of deseases that are "epidemic" now. Why? Because children like mine live. 200 years ago, they didn't. Children were once an economic assest, and children who were not, well...imagine a hyperactive sesory seeking child in a tiny house with an open flame, then, look and see how many children died when their clothing caught fire. That number was huge. What do you think the chances are that the children who had less control over their behaviro were more inclided to burn to death and never aged to a point where the family realized that they had autism (or were an "imbacile") We live in a time where children live, where infant mortality is low, and where we all expect that our children will out live us. A child who cannot nurse, lives in the 21st century. My autistic children could not nurse, and would have died 200 years ago. Nursing is a motor skill, and neither one of them was able to do it. It was the first question I was asked by the developmental pediatricians intake nurse. So, I am sure that vaccines did not cause thier autism, they were born with it. Before modern medicine, many children who were weaker died before they could be diagnosed with any of our growing modern day ailments. What is epidemic is awarenes and that almost all babies are born live, and live to adulthood. I fear that this will not be true of many of the unvaccinated who now live among us.

People who knew the heart ache of losing half thier children to desease did not question the small risk of such a wonderful life giving option. One of the first vaccines, for small pox, was very risky. Nearly 10% of those who were vaccinated for small pox in the 17th century contracted small pox and died. Still, people were willing to take that chance, and were willing to endure the illness everyone got from the vaccination and be quarenteened for 6 weeks to acquire imunity from small pox. John Adams, the second president, had his entire family vaccinated so that they could travel to Europe with him safely. It was a risk worth taking in a world where people knew how deadly life could be, because they faced death so much more frequently than we do today, in the young adult, in the healthy adolecent, in the new born, the toddler, and the young child. We do not experience that today, and our perspective is way off base, we feel invincible, and we are not.

Autsim is not the end of the world, and it should not be part of this discussion at all.

M.

Actually... we are ALL beginning to live in an age with measles and whooping cough. Pertussis is sweeping the NW and several other areas and measles is cropping up in localized areas all over the place. During the H1N1 freak out (nowhere near as scary as what we vax for), several schools in CA closed because of a measles outbreak. But that news was squashed to page 3 million and 47. I only know because of friends in SoCal and checking with my Profs who keep updated in epidemiology. ALL the schools in their district closed for H1N1, but 3 of the schools had confirmed measles. So far 'herd immunity' is keeping measles localized, but as fewer and fewer people vaccinate we're getting closer to the epidemic lines again. And in many areas, are already below them (hint, localized outbreaks are found typically in areas with high concentrations of people choosing not to immunize). Which is giving immunologists and epidemiologists and med professionals strokes and apoplectic seizures.

We just had a minor measles outbreak here in Seattle. We got a touch of it (even though we're immunized) as did about 40 people we know of through our docs. Lab results will take weeks... so we don't know if we got the mild version that we don't immunize against, or a particularly virulent strain got out and it just took awhile for our immune systems to beat it down even already having antibodies for it. Thank all the powers that be that we were vax'd against it if it was the super strain. We were sick as dogs for several days, but never progressed into full blown measles (our fevers stayed "safe" double tapping with tylenol + ibuprofen at 102/3 instead of fevers of 104-107 even with meds, only 40 or 50 spots instead of hundreds, etc.).

My feeling on vaccinations is this: if you're not afraid of AIDs and teach your children to have UNprotected sex, and if they test positive encourage them to have sex with as many people as possible: don't get vax'd. ((And as many people get anaphylactic shock from latex in condoms as do from vaccinations. And heavy breathing, dizziness, flush, is all appropriate from sex. At least with vaccinations you KNOW if there's an allergic reaction right away))

I'm 62, and when I grew up, polio vaccines were only newly available, and not all children had received them by the time they started school. My husband remembers his parents and others being terrified to allow their children to be in mixed groups during the summer, especially public swimming. I have had a few acquaintances who had partially paralyzed, withered limbs since childhood because of polio. A woman my husb nearly married had partial throat paralysis, and could only swallow by turning her head while eating. A best friend's cousin lived her entire life in an iron lung, and died at 30-something. And surviving polio vicitims are subject to new layers of health problems cropping up later in life.

When I was a child, few kids were vaccinated for measles. I have known several people who were sterile, and/or deaf or partially deaf because of "common" measles. When I was little, I was taken to a "measles party" so I could catch the disease while young and "get it over with." My sisters and I were absolutely miserable for days. But it's much more dangerous if caught when older.

There are risks for vaccinations, just as there are risks for any other medical treatment or medication. Even the most common ones. People can get serious stomach bleeds on ibuprofen or even aspirin, and acetaminophen can seriously damage the liver. It's sensible to take risks into account.

But I'm glad you're asking this question, because the risks of NOT vaccinating are generally much more severe, and catching serious illness is becoming more and more likely as larger pools of unvaccinated people are available to transmit disease.

Okay to the mom who is against the flu shot and the Hep B shot, you are NUTS. If an infant is born to an Hep B positive mom you want to get the vaccine in the infants system ASAP. How do you know if the infant is going to need a blood transfusion or not? For my last pregnancy they gave me all these what if senarios, but they didn't include the you might need to get a blood transfusion and I did, it can happen. What about later in the childs/infants life they are not so careful, trust me I went to school with plenty of kids that came from nice and decent families and they still gave into the peer pressures of having unprotected sex and using drugs. There are always the what ifs in this society. A flu shot, okay I would rather see my kids have a tiny reaction to the flu then get the full blown influenza. One of my children are immune compromised and you better believe it anyone and everyone that is around him gets a flu shot every year. If I have all of my son's different specialists (from cardiology to immunology) that always ask has everyone gotten their flu shots yet? I had twins, when it came to their 6 month check up their pediatrician (I also happened to work there) was starting to talk about the flu shot and I stopped her and said okay Dr. do you need to talk me into it? I would rather see my babies be uncomfortable for a few days then hooked up to different IV's from complications from the flu. As it was one of my twins was admitted to children's when she was 9 months old because of breathing issues with pneumonia and her identical twin did it a year later. In my opinion people who delay their kids shots are just crazy, or the ones that don't want to give their children shots. It is an easy way to protect your children from preventable diseases.

The vaccine debate is complex, and scary in my opinion. There are sides to scare you if you do, and don't!! Honestly after my THIRD baby I feel like some vaccines ARE neccessary. BOTTOM line.And I have no more "ifs" Where I live there have been a reported four babies in one hospital that have died from whooping cough. SCARY.
My mother in laws mom lost her hearing from the high fever of diptheria. Permanently at 7 yrs. My uncle nearly died from polio as a child, he survived but was disabled his whole life. Another uncle of mine did not survive. He died at 4 months old.
On the flip, do I support the flu shots? No. Hep B NO NO NO. Research and education is key here. Know what you are vaccinating your kids against and WHY. Hep B is contracted through sex, dirty needles, and bad blood transfusions. All of which are HIGHLY unlikely if not ridiculous for an INFANT. So why inject a little immune system with that?
I strongly recommend Dr. Sears vaccine book. It does not try to sway you either way. It is informative. It gives you the tools to make your opinion.
I go with an alternative schedule. My baby gets one combo shot at a time, which gives him no more then 3 vaccines combined at once. When the normal schedule can give 5-7! Way too much for a little body in my opinion!
Good luck on your quest for info :)
As far as Hep B and the mom who says Im NUTS. I dont believe in giving it to an INFANT. As a child gets older and their immune systems are stronger. YES. Of course if the mother is Hep B positive you'd give it to them, but I am NOT. You are tested for that when pregnant. And blood transfusions are screened now. Understand what I am actually saying before you call me nuts. The flu shot is personal opinion, but my kids are not sickly children who are at risk. Myself nor any of them or my husband have had it, and we are alsways fine. My friend gets it for her son and he is sick ALL THE TIME. Constantly. He is barely two and is already building up immunity for antibiotics. Maybe it's not connected but maybe it is! ANyways, my choices are not based on scare tactics from Dr.s and drug companies.

I just wanted to say thanks for asking this question. Although my family is on a delayed vax schedule (part of this is due to our doc's office not initiating ANY vaccinations... we looked for a doc who was okay with alternative schedules, but got too good a deal in that they NEVER tell us when he's due for vaccinations), I do agree that this is an important issue. Thanks again. (and yes, we do plan on getting him caught up!)

My grandmother had polio, which affected her back and caused her to deliver both of her babies very prematurely. Thankfully, my mother and aunt survived, but their little brother wasnt as lucky.

I didn't live through the period of polio, but my father-in-law who is now 91 years old did. He contracted polio in his teens. He doesn't talk about it much, but he says he had to stay alone in an isolate hospital ward - there were no other patients on the floor at all - just him. He was at the mercy of a kind nurse who volunteered to risk her life to take care of him. He obviously lived, but ended up with a brace on one leg. That leg is very weak, skinny, and inches shorter than his other leg. As a result of the weaknesses in that leg, his strong leg has had to do all the work. That has resulted in his having to have THREE hip replacements in his good leg - he wears them out. I am thankful there is a vaccine now and wish it had existed for him.

I have a couple of suggestions, most of which come from my own discussions with my pediatricians.
* First of all, many people are scared of purported links to autism. The doctor behind the study that suggested a relationship between vaccines and autism has been disbarred because the quality of the research this study was based on (and the terror it created) was so horrible.
* Second, most childhood vaccines are safe, always feel free to double check that they are mercury-free
* Third, vaccines work through herd immunity, in order for a disease to become non-threatening we all need to have the vaccine, when "large" numbers of people stop vaccinating these diseases easily reoccur. Look into some of the information about diseases reappearing in places like California where as much as 10% of children stopped getting some vaccines.
* Fourth, choosing not to vaccinate your kids has some ethical problems - essentially you are relying on the rest of us to get vaccines for our kids in order to keep "herd immunity" strong. Therefore you are asking us to do something you are not willing to do, to protect YOUR kids.
* In places where vaccines were briefly unavailable (Russian prisons after the fall of communism) diseases like measles and polio came back with a vengence.
There is a lot of info out there from reputable sites about these issues. Try the CDC.gov, try mayoclinic.com

Vaccinations are an advancement of modern medicine, and a main reason for the increased life span of the past few generations. While everything has its risks, to not vaccinate for some of the most dangerous and preventable diseases is akin to neglect. I would think carefully before presenting this discussion as a 50/50 decision. Much research goes into preventing as much sickness and death, and I have not seen pediatricians encouraging skipping of vaccines. I am an ED nurse and have seen my share of kids coming in with illness that could have been prevented. My 2 cents.

The Dr Sears book of vaccines (sure you already have that) is great at spelling out the risks of the vaccines vs the risks the diseases actually pose with current medical care and how likely it is to contract them, so you can decide which risk is higher, vaccinating or not.

Why don't you suggest she check out the Dr. Sears book? He's not anti vax so it isn't a bunch of propaganda but he talks about both his concerns with vaccines and the diseases themselves. Why are you talking about vaccination in a breastfeeding class beyond the fact that it can be soothing for babies to nurse when they are being injected? Really I think if she asks her pedi she will get all the pro-vaccination info she needs. Docs are usually good for that.

I personally would not find anecdotal information helpful in making this decision. To know that this person had that complication or that person contracted this disease and died, wouldn't help me at all, no more than knowing that another person wasn't vaccinated at all and had no complications from many childhood illnesses. Knowing about the specifics of the individual diseases in this day (info on death rates of babies 100 years ago is absolutely useless since simple medical knowledge, never mind medication were non existent) would be much more helpful. So for ex, knowing what chicken pox is like and the rates of complication and death from it would be helpful in making a decision on whether or not to vax for that. Knowing that someone's relative died from complications of chicken pox would not. I don't think a bunch of anecdotal stories are particularly good for making an informed decision.

I think the polio vaccine is a no-brainer. I got it when it first came out and I truly remember parents being freaked out because of the devastation of people being in iron lungs, paralyzed, etc. A friend's father was permanently disabled. So Salk and Sabin were heroes, rock stars in everyone's estimation.

I had the other diseases (measles, mumps, German measles, chicken pox) and they pretty much sucked - chicken pox and mumps were the worst in my case. My son was in the varicella trials (chicken pox) and I'm glad he didn't get sick. However, I think the epidemic rates of autism and ADHD and other issues are cause for concern. Because of my nutrition training, I am able to choose an excellent all-food supplement to prevent things like colds and the flu, so I absolutely don't get the flu shot because it's unnecessary given my immune system. All of my colleagues feel the same way and no one gives their kids the flu shot because they can prevent it in other ways. But they do give them polio, mumps, etc. Jury is still out on HPV.

The whole debate is changing because of school requirements, and also the backlash against people who started taking their kids to "chicken pox parties" once one kid was sick so that everyone would get sick. Crazy.

I've been a teacher so I know what happens when working parents send a sick kid to school. In the "old days" you stayed home when you were sick so that you got well and didn't infect the whole class. Now, parents are sending kids who have an 102 fever at 8:30 a.m. - now you KNOW that kid was at least 101 at 7:30 that morning and was looking ill. Teachers are getting a little tired of cleaning up vomit because someone wouldn't keep their kid at home. I understand the conflict when someone has to work, but sending that illness into a class of 22 is ridiculous - which is how your kid got sick in the first place: someone else did it!

I do think that we need to react to the facts that our food supply is nutritionally-deficient, our soils are depleted, produce is picked early and artificially gassed to be put in limbo or made nice and green looking even though it was picked early and has 40% less nutrient value than it did a generation ago. We are going to the ridiculously overstocked and overpriced vitamin aisle and trying to be food scientists, picking an isolated mineral or nutrient and thinking it will work in our bodies without all the other companion nutrients it needs in order to function. We take vitamin pills that were made God-knows-where and touched by many hands, and they are only absorbed 25% or so anyway. We ignore the AMA recommendations in 2002 that everyone must supplement with a balanced and comprehensive supplement, and that liquid is far better than pills. Then we get sick and we start a vaccine debate. We need to get back to SOME basics and use the science and research that are out there, and stop trying to choose Vitamin X or Mineral Y because of an article we read in a waiting room. Even that Airborne stuff supposed to prevent colds on airplanes has been called on the carpet by the FDA for exaggerated claims. So we shouldn't be doing things because of commercials or celebrity endorsements. We need to look at food science research, clinical trials, and solid case studies, and take a very frank look at our food industry.

I just want to point out that two thirds (that means 2 out of every 3) of the people in California who got whooping cough were FULLY vaccinated. Just a little fact. There's hours and hours of research that needs to be done on the dangers of vaccines, and to realize that all these diseases were declining on their own ten years before vaccines came out. The polio vaccine actually caused a surge in the disease when it first came out. There't tons of facts out there that people aren't finding on their own. RESEARCH, RESEARCH, and RESEARCH some more.
Oh, and I have a dead child. I can confidentally say that I would much rather lose another child naturally than chemically. And that does happen ALOT. For some reason, it just doesn't make the news. Hmmm...I wonder why!?

All you have to do is google the last rates of mumps, pertussis (whooping cough), and diphtheria. Once you get those stats, it's a shoe in that they include the rate of mortality.