Toddler Discipline - What to Do When Time-outs Lose Effect

Putting the child in a separate room, even if its fun, sends the message that he can't be with other people if he acts like that.

when time outs aren't working for my daughter, we send her to her room. i think it works because she isn't allowed toys in her room so she has to sit in there with the door closed. usually, it results in her having a temper tantrum (to her bedroom = bedtime), in which case she is not allowed to come out until she has calmed down and THEN she serves her time out in her room.
good luck finding something that works for you.

I know I'm a latecomer but I recently answered a similar question and wanted to quote you someone else's excellent response (so please forgive me if these are not 100% applicable to your question).

"The biggest lesson I learned from the class is that you can not control what another person (your child or anyone) will do, but you can control what you will do. How this plays out with the "NO" situations for us is that if my daughter asks for something she can't have, instead of giving her a "no" I try to give her a "yes" or a good, honest reason for the "no".

If she says "I want to nursie" when I am right in the middle of making dinner, then I will say "yes, you can nursie after I finish making dinner". She gets a "yes" instead of a "no" and I get to finish making dinner. I have also noticed that many times just getting a "yes" is all she needs and by the time I am done making dinner she is caught up with something else and forgets that she had "needed to nursie so urgently :)"

Another great tool - especially with a young one like you have is Distraction! I learned this so vividly from a friend when her kids were in the backyard playing and they got into a disagreement over something and just as it was about to escalate, she came out and said "Anyone want a popcicle?" Needless to say, the disagreement was forgotten and popcicles were eaten! Kids don't always need a popcicle to be distracted - just something else to put in their hands to explore. You hold the cool spatula from the kitchen drawer out in front of them and then, ever so casually, take the sharpie marker away when they reach for the spatula.

I guess the last thing is to really make an effort to make the physical environment a "yes" environment. Get those little plastic cabinet locks for kitchen cabinets (make sure to leave one or two that are filled with safe things and leave those accessible to kids), move things up to higher shelves that are dangerous, get a couple of really big baskets from Goodwill and fill them with simple toys or books or just more spatulas or other household objects that are safe. Keep the baskets around and offer one up for your dd to explore thoroughly when she needs something to keep her brain and body entertained. Switch the baskets every so often (hide one for a few days or week so that the items become new and interesting again after a while).

These baskets are also a great way to help with quick pick up - you can just pick up everything that is strewn on the floor and throw it all in the big basket! My dd even liked to just crawl into the big basket and sit there!"

My response:
I've read tons of parenting books and have come to the conclusion that the more anyone understands about child development, the more patience and compassion they automatically have for toddlers and children (and the waaaaay easier it makes parenting!) They are always only doing the best their minds can do for their developmental age. Punishment at any age just causes more stress and problems. Children -- and people at all ages -- need to be gradually shown how to do things with a compassionate manner. And sometimes it is us, not them, that needs to change.

My fav books are:

"The Successful Child" or "The Discipline Book" by William Sears -- has super-quick sections to read on different topics and ages. I find his books to be the best for toddler-friendly reading (i.e., 5 minute increments)

"Baby Hearts" by Linda Acredolo, hard to put down, the basic principles of self-esteem and development for babies & children, based on recent studies

"What Babies Say Before They Can Talk" by Paul Holinger, ditto above, if you have more time to read, applicable to all ages

You know, from what I've read, I'm not really sure that the timeouts AREN'T working.

It almost sounds like he's made a cognitive leap & is trying to show you how smart he is.

To test that theory, I'd praise him ONCE, tell him "EXACTLY! when we do something that we're Not Supposed to Do we....etc etc etc (aka what you tell him timeouts are for)." Then get kind of serious and "I know you've been trying to show me, BUT this is for etc. etc. etc....it's not a game. No game. Trouble."

I'm also wondering if he's seeing the wee one hit and kick, and is reacting to that. Making him understand that when "Susie" is BIG like "Billy" and she's learning she'll be doing timeouts to learn too! But "Susie's" a baby. Babies can't learn like big boys yet. We can talk. Poor "Susie" can't talk yet. etc etc etc.

Anyhow...I'd give it a whirl. If that isn't what's going on, and the timeout chair is merely an attention getting game, switch it up. Either move the chair, or move the place. If you haven't started talking about why he's on time out (the leading questions that get him to think about what, why, feelings at the time of incident, & what to do next time) I'd start that too.

It sounds like you're already good on the pos. reinforcement, and are spending as much time as you can with him.

But here's one thing: Cut yourself some slack. Some things are going to slide, and get shuffled. It's okay.

Be good to yourself,
Z

The reason they've lost their effectiveness is that he's using his behavior to get some undivided attention, even if it's 'bad' attention, he's gotten it. You have a 6 wk old baby, your little boy is no longer your primary concern, your center of attention. As hard as it may be, you need to (1) make some time for him and him alone. If it's reading him a story, playing a game with him, taking him for a walk or a trip to the grocery store while Dad watches the baby, it has to happen. (2) Be inclusive. Ask him to help with the baby. Bringing you wipes. Sorting laundry (yes a 2 yr old can help sort colors) (3) Set consequences for his behaviors, sounds like he knows what constitutes a timeout. Taking aways favorite toys for a week or more. If he has so many that taking away one or two doesn't phase him, he's got too many. He earns them back.
But he's begging for attention. This is a adjustment period for you as well as him. You'll have to make the time to spend some one on one time with him. Dad can help as well, but this is what's happening. It's not easy being 2 to begin with, but throw in a new sibling and one of the opposite sex, wow, life has changed drastically for him and he doesn't have the coping skills yet. He's your big boy now, but he's still your boy. And because he's two he's still your little boy needing just as much attention, if not more than the new baby. It's a juggling act for you, but you will master it. He will love his role as big brother, give him a chance to grow into it.

My only comment as a mother of children that were more often well-behaved and well-adjusted than not and happy children is that 'if' spanking is supposed to teach children how to hit how come your two year old is hitting you? It doesn't sound like he's been spanked in the past so where did he learn it?

In my opinion a child hitting a parent is simply unnacceptable on any level. It simply should never be tolerated regardless of the age of the child. What kind of message are you sending your son that it's okay to hit anyone; especially mom or dad? Just like I always taught my children...always do everything you can possibly do to avoid a fight but the other person puts their hands on you then all bets are off. Defending oneself against physical threat is a human instinct and should be practiced in times of need. So why do some parents think that being hit by their child shouldn't be punished by a spanking?

Just my two cents and something to think about if you ask me.

Before anyone freaks out I am no advocating beating a child, spanking excessively or frequently, spanking out of anger or spanking anywhere on the body except the buttocks and have never done any of the above with my children.

Sincerely,
C.

Unfortunately, you have to just keep at it. Hold him in time out. It will be VERY hard with a newborn. Don't keep trying different things. Stay with what he knows and keep at it. Hold him there if you have too.

Think about this. If you had a dog and you were trying to train it to not get on the couch... everytime it didn't work, would you change your discipline? I know children are not dogs, but it still applies. Be consistant and be firm and he will soon get that mom is not a push over.

Check out the "love and logic" parenting guides...this stuff works like MAGIC!!!! I have revisited my cd's while I am driving around with the kids...our last few days have been so great, just because I have refreshed my skills. www.loveandlogic.com

Looks to me like your son wants attention, plain and simple. I notice you have a new baby girl... he's just trying to adjust to the new baby in the house. I would probably stop giving time outs. If he hits you tell him it's not okay to hit, and that if he wants attention from you he can ask for it. Make sure when he does ask for attention that you give it to him. Be sure to spend quality alone time with him as much as possible when the baby is asleep. It's hard to be 2 and have a new baby in the house.
Take care,
T.

A couple of ideas:

When he lightly hits you and runs to the timeout place, turn your back and don't respond to him. If he is truly in need of a time out because of misbehavior, he won't want to go. And having to go will be an undesirable thing for him. I would hesitate to do away with the timeout method, because it is so effective. Certainly at this age I would not make it last any longer than a 1 minute. You might want want to change the location of the timeout so he cannot see you.

Another idea, when he hits you, grab his hand firmly, but gently, and say without anger or emotion, but looking in his eyes, you may not hit me. The trick is to say you may not hit me. Every time, make him stop and listen. If he has to stop his activities and listen to this. Eventually he will get it figured it out. No hitting means I get to play. Hitting means I have to look in my mom's eyes and she is not fun at that time.

S.,
I am going through the same thing with my 2 year old. I do not have any advice as I am looking for some ideas too. I just wanted you to know you have support and prayers. I am going to read The Strong Willed Child and Raising Boys to see if that is any help. Good luck. If you get any good advice I would love to hear it.
K.

I use time out with my kids... but they HAVE to know that you are upset about something. Just putting them in time out doesn't mean much. But if you pair it with a SERIOUS voice and an obvious UNHAPPY look on your face they know you are serous.... I try to get down to their level and explain why.. in my SERIOUS voice and look.. why they are going to time out... and before I let them out they have to tell me they are ready to not do whatever it was they did while they were there... then they apologize and go on with what their day...

When my youngest was born my then two year old daughter stopped caring about time outs also. She wasn't a hitter but it was all a game to her. After her time out she would go get one of her dolls and put it in time out. I found that just having a talk with her or finding a punishment that fits the crime seems to give her a better grasp of what she did wrong.
Last week my now 2 year old youngest drew all over the wall with a pencil so I had her help me wash the wall with a damp cloth. When my 4 year old doesn't follow the rules on her scooter she has to take it and put it away in my closet for the rest of the day.
Sometimes I just talk it out with them using all of those dorky feeling words and inflections.
"It makes me angry when you take the toy you sister was playing with. Would it make you angry if someone took a toy from you?" Then we give the toy back and apoligize to our sister.
"I am so sad that you ripped the page in that book. I really like to read this book. I hope we can fix it." And then we get the tape and repair the book. Sometimes we tell the book we are sorry too.
We still use time out sometimes but it is usually for outright defiance or violent behavior which doesn't happen very often.
I hope this helps.
E.

Have you read the Discpline with Love & Logic books? Seen the tapes? Taken the courses? They really do work. I love how the books give you little stories of how the techniques are used. I used them on my 3 year old, and got immediate results. Never had to do a time out again.
They are by Drs. Cline & Faye. Your library will have them. I guarantee that you'll use this method until they are teens. You want them to make good choices and you DON'T want to be telling them what to do forever!

your kids are the same age difference as mine. Although mine are almost 4 and 2 now. My younger is also having a shift in behavior. She is discovering her independence, and that she has control over what she does.

I once spanked my older child when he was "squashing" his younger sister and she was screaming terribly. He had been in time out numerous times for that same thing the same day. It shocked him, he cried and said "Don't hit mommy". Of course I felt terrible about breaking the rules and hitting my son, and I put myself into time out to be consistent with the rules. He still went into time out for squashing.

I have started putting my kids into time out in their rooms, and they are to stay there until they are ready to behave. No crying, no hitting, just being good cooperators and good sharing friends. Of course the older one stays there longer and plays, when the younger one comes out (pretty quickly) if she is still crying, I put her back...again and again if necessary...I will ask her if she is ready to behave, and if she says yes, then I try to take her to a different spot and find a different game to play...or even have a snack (she gets hungry more than my older one does, and I sometimes don't catch it in time to prevent naughty behavior).

It is hard with two little ones, and I know how tired you are and how frustrating disciplining for the same behaviors can get. Eventually they will learn the rules, and it will get easier...and then she will be 2:-)

I started time-outs around age 2, so it really didn't lose effectiveness until recently. Time outs still work for the short term, but we're not having long term effectiveness anymore.

I think at age 2 though it's time to step it up. If my son did not respect me or got up from his time out I would put him in his high chair. He hated this.. I would strap him into his high-chair and put it in a darkish hallway. It was really boring because he couldn't really do anything else. He would have to stay there until he was done throwing a fit or being rude. Make sure that he's away from all stimulation (in a dim hallway, staring in a corner, etc). If he can see what you're doing, it's just not that boring.

My son is now 5 and I recently changed the punishment to removing privledges or favorite toys. This has been extremely effective for a 4-5 year old. I also tried this technique when my son was 2 with ZERO success, if he lost one toy he'd just strug and move on to something else. I think 4 is about the age to change from time-outs to removal of privledges. I hope this helps. Good luck.

I highly suggest Triple P parenting http://www.triplep-america.com/.
The key is to be consistent.
Also what do you do after the time out? And how long do you keep him in time out?
I hope that this site works for you. I can tell you it is evidence based, and that our local children mental health program is implementing it.

Hi, S.--- your little boy has found ONE way to be sure that the tiny little new-comer doesn't get all the attention- bad behaviour. So try this - any hit - however tiny --- has to have one predictable response that he won't' like. For example --- you could say '''' you hit??? you sit''' --- and hold him - gently with your hands on his shoulders - so that he is sitting facing away from you for one minute on a chair or a step --- THEN he goes to his time out spot for his time out- but hitting has to have it's own- really unpleasant consequence - . It's a lot of work when you are tired - but try really hard to be consistant- and know that we all will still love you if the only consistancy is that you want YOUR time out-.

Blessings,
J.

2 yrs old and a new sister in the household is good ol'fun. Since children age 2-3 are entering their 1st real indepence stage and possibly some jealousy, careful balancing of time and patience is needed. Pick your battles. You don't need to 'win' all the time. I found if using the measurement of w minute for each age year is enough and sending them to their room worked wonders. Forget the chair. It didn't matter what they did because I was usually the one upset or tired. So, either they got sidetracked, I calmed down enough to talk rather than yell or get more frustrated. Again, pick and choose the battles or everything will seem/be a battle.

There are lots of options besides time-outs. Taking away toys, losing privileges, taking away an activity that the child really likes. Giving him a treat or reward for listening, saying "Mommy will take you to the park if you listen".

You have to be really creative. The more positive the reinforcement the better. Doctors have found that children respond more to praise, than to criticism. However, that's not enough either. I find I have to continually change the punishments and rewards, or it has no effect.