Hi all
This may seem silly but thought I would throw it out there. My dd's brownie group is having there 1st overnighter. Great! My dd is really excited as she has been there a couple of years. :-) There was a chance the group was going to close down over the summer as most of the older girls had moved on and there were only 3 girls left, so the 3 girls who were left got together with the leaders and made posters, went into the schools to talk to other girls to try and get some new recruits. lol So hooray a nice group of girls have joined so we are very happy. Ok now the issue concerning the overnighter, the leaders are only allowed to have 4 girls each (fair enough) but there are 11 girls/2 leaders and they have said if everyone wants to go they will have to draw names. So there will be 3 disappointed girls as at the moment all want to go. No parents are allowed to go to help out. I have prepared my dd for a disappointment but after thinking about it, I though to myself, well shouldn't the 3 girls who have been there the longest plus made the huge effort to get more girls in the group get to go anyway? I haven't said anything as yet but the other mother of one of the original 3 came up to me and said exactly the same thing. hmm. Then a couple of the moms of the new girls said to me that they thought the same!! (still without me even bringing it up) I have to admit if my dd had only been going for a couple of weeks I would not be keen on her attending an overnighter and I don't think she would be either. So should I say anything as I feel that if they don't have enough cover for all the girls they shouldn't have planned it in the 1st place. There are going to be a couple of upset girls if this goes ahead. Sorry this is so long. I want to hear yes/no responses but please don't tell me kids have to learn to deal with disappointment (as I have prepared my dd)- yes you do have to learn this when you get older but not a child. JMO Thanks
Thanks Margie, it does sound crazy. The leaders are really nice and the girls love them but I feel that they really haven't thought it through. :-)
Thanks so far. I will offer to help out and see what they say. Overnight-er not till November, so hopefully enough time to get a happy bunch of girls (and parents!! lol) :-)
Yep totally agree, they all should go or none of them go.
All the troops from the area are invited to this event and the ratio is 1 leaders/ 4 girls, which is strange as our group is probably one of the smallest. I don't know how the other troops are dealing with this predicament. More investigating is needed on my part I think.
More info just in - They are staying indoors in a dormitory style building. Only 1 room to each troop and each room has 5 sets of bunks = 10 beds = 8 girls and 2 leaders. Still going to ask how the other troops are dealing with this because as I said we are probably one of the smaller troops. Maybe having another overnighter early next year??? Questions to be asked folks....thanks so far.
There's gotta be something you can work out. Its Brownies for goodness sakes...helping one another is the basis for why that organization exists in the first place.
I think I would have to say something too. What is the reasoning why parents can't assist? I agree that it will destroy community among the girls and possibly make the three girls that were left out want to leave the group entirely. As a former classroom teacher, the rule of thumb was always everyone participates or nobody participates regardless if it was having birthday treats or a class trip. I can't imagine telling a class full of kids that 3 of them would have to stay behind from a field trip because there wasn't enough adult supervision! Ridiculous!
HTH,
A.
It should be all or none. They are a troop, team. One for all, all for one. I was a former Brownie leader and I would never do this. Not a good idea at all. The chances are that you will loose some of the girls over this. I would suggest you talking to the leaders again about parent involvement for the sleepover.
WHAT!!??!!!
I would never, ever plan an event that excluded any of our girls. The event should be cancelled. And what kind of Brownie overnighter does not allow parents? If you are a registered GS then to keep with SafetyWise you can go, even if it is at a museum or something similar.
Absolutely say something. This is totally unfair and if my daughter joined a troop and then immediately was excluded she would be out. Or if my daughter was in a troop that excluded any one of the girls on such an outing I would pull her.
I can't even imagine the leaders suggesting such a thing.
Absolutely do not let them go through with this. The idea is to build a community not tear it apart. Some other parents need to get background checks and trained, or call council to find another chaperone. The excluded girls would always know they missed a big event! gl
Everyone goes or no one goes. Why any adult would think this is okay is beyond me.
How experienced are these leaders?
I would think that if they've done this for any time at all they would know they cannot say "Only some of you can come." That is destructive to the troop's morale and pits girls against each other.
I also do not get the "each leader can only 'take' four girls" statement you made. Are you referring to some limit placed by whoever or whatever is organizing this overnight (and by the way, what and where IS it? A museum sleepover, a campout, what?)? Or is this a limit the leaders themselves have set, that they're only able to handle a total of eight girls for the night with two leaders present?
Ask the leaders to consult a publication (now online, at their Girl Scout Council or Girl Scouts of the USA web sites) called "Safety Wise." This is the official GS rulebook for all safety and health issues and sets out things like minimum numbers of adults per numbers of children for events. I haven't looked just now but I feel sure that "Safety Wise" rules allow them to supervise more than eight girls with two adult leaders present. "Safety Wise" will also have the rules about taking non-leader adults along. GS troops have parents attend camping and other overnights all the time.
They really need either to expand this overnighter to the entire troop or not do it -- no other options.
They need to confer with their GS council (and they should know what and where their council is -- if they seem flummoxed by your citing the council and "Safety Wise" they are seriously under-trained) and they need to know they cannot shut out some of the troop. It's an all or nothing deal. If they have booked an overnight at someplace like a museum or other place, and that place/organizer is the one telling them "We only have eight slots for kids, no more, and only leaders can come, no other adults," then they must undo that booking and not go at all.
Please don't engage in a discussion of "The three girls who were already in the troop should be the ones to go." That only sets up those girls, in the minds of the new recruits and their parents, as girls who will try to rule the roost from here on. I know that's not the case, but if all the parents are arguing with the leaders that "My daughter should be chosen," the results will damage the whole troop.
Yes, I'm a GS leader, and I'm appalled at this situation. I really wonder, and would like to know, what kind of overnighter this is. I have to assume it's something set up by an outside organization (many museums, historic sites, etc. have overnighters and can limit participation numbers etc.). If it turns out it's just something entirely organized by the leaders themselves, like a camping trip, and they're the ones who are sayiing they can take eight girls but not 11 -- they seriously need to rearrange things so all 11 are able to attend. Not every girl will -- there are always conflicts and some kids can't make some events -- but it MUST be open to all or they will have a disastrous year ahead.
ADDED: I just saw the "so what happened." Who set up this event and dictated the four-girls-per leader? If other troops are going, is this an event set up by the GS council for the area? That's ridiculous and whoever set it up, if it's a GS organization, should get an earful from leaders, and leaders need to vote with their feet and not take their girls.
F.,
You're right. You need to investigate further. I'm a Brownie Leader, and this doesn't seem quite right to me.
I'm not understanding why parent chaperones wouldn't be allowed.....?
But, if it comes down to it, you know you can register yourself ($12.) to become a co-leader and then you can go, too!
Everyone or no one. 2 moms need to volunteer to help.
I am with Margie M!
Girl Scouts and Brownies encourage parents to volunteer. I find it odd that they will not allow a parent to go. If a parent went, it would solve the problem.
My daughter's troop went on an over night at a museum last year and many of the parents went along and they were welcome by the leader!
The Girl Scouts website encourages parents to volunteer whenever they can. Even if its just for a campout, etc. So that fact that they aren't allowing or encouraging at least one parent volunteer to go so that the whole troop can go is odd. There may be some safety concerns considering CPR certifications, etc. but nothing that can't be resolved by Nov.
http://www.girlscouts.org/for_adults/volunteering/ways_to...
Why aren't moms aloud to help out and go? That's wierd to me. I mean what's going on at this sleepover? Secret Brownie rituals...Could all the moms willing to go put thier names in a hat to see wich 1 will get to go so all the girls can go. They are little girls and that doesnt' seem fair. I would probably pull my daughter from this organization(if I had a daughter)
Hi F.-
I am sure that in this day and age, the girl scouts want a background check on anyone assisting with the scouts...leader...assistant leader...or parent! I had to have one after years of already being a religious ed teacher some years ago...Is there time before the 'spend over' for you (or another parent) to get one done??
One funny story this brought to mind...my best friend as a 'youngster' and I had august b days...so we were younger than many classmates. Our classmates were all becoming brownies...but meg and I were too young at first...so my dad made us 'charter members' of the 'tannies'...lol
We had LOTS of spendovers...and fun in our back yards...and we eventually allowed the 'brownies' to participate...but meg and I were 'charter' members!!
Hope it works out!
michele/cat
I would find out more about why parents can't go...I was an asst leader and when we did overnights, we asked for parents to help balance the number of girls and adults and always encourages parents to be involved. I understand parents needing to have a background check maybe?? Hmmmm...hope it all works out...no girl should be left out who wants to be included...that's what the whole concept of GS is...for all to be included and to be supportive of each other! good luck!
I agree, it should be all or none. Your group needs another leader. How about you?
Not a fan of exclusion of children in any arena, and I'm not buying the Brownie Seniority Theory!
yes
and it was my understanding all could go if you get one more parent to chaperone who is a registered adult member. could you hurry and sign up?
Well, I'm tying so hard to think of something helpful to say, but it's just not coming. Honestly, I think I would press the leaders a little to try and find a better solution. What is their rational behind "no parents?" What about an aunt or a high school or college student. Is the problem the adult to child ratio? (which totally makes sense) or the site they've chosen has a space limit (so why did they chose it)?
I'm really not helping ... it just really frustrates me that the only solution they have involves excluding 3 random girls. Those poor moms are going to have their work cut out for them. Hopefully they can do something together to give those girls a great alternative.
Do all the girls want to go? Would all the parents allow them?
In that case, could one mom sign in as co-leader so all girls could participate? You can't start a group and then ask them not to participate on the activities. Be inclusive, NOT exclusive.
Really? 1:4? In our area it's 1:10. With a ratio of 2:11 that's more than enough. I mean really... if the ratio were supposed to be 1:4 then how do they run meetings?
This is so different from Cub Scouts. We have to have a parent with every child, but they sleep in tents and not dorms.
I also find it odd that they won't allow a parent to go. You can get a background check with fingerprinting done at the post office. Also, out of 11 girls, isn't there a chance that a couple of them either don't want to go, or can't go for one reason or another? That would solve some of the problem.
If it comes down to choosing, I agree that the 3 original girls should be excluded from the possibility of not being chosen to go.
I also agree with the fact that eliminating 3 girls who DO want to go would not be a great idea...so not fair to them!
Why can't you just get another chaperone?
LBC
I think the ratio is because you are not required to have a set number of leaders. My daughters troop has four mostly because of things like this. Because of liability issues you have to be certified before you can go camping with girls, the easiest way to do this is be a leader.
Back to the original question the true answer lies with are the two leaders the same leaders of the original three. If this is not the case then you have no more claim to the spots as the new girls who brought with them new leaders. If you haven't noticed leaders are harder to come by than actual scouts.
Oh Brownies technically can't camp yet, they are not old enough that is why outings like this have such a low leader to camper ratio. :)
It seems like if the 2 women couldn't handle that many girls, they should have fewer girls in the troop. All of the girls should be allowed to go, and the leaders need to figure out who the other mom is that will join them. It's not much of a troop if some of the girls get excluded. Good luck to you -
