Disciplining an Overtired 3 Year Old

I'm the meanest mommy around.
Rules are rules. I used to tell mine: You are allowed to be tired and cranky, but you are not allowed to be rude, yell, pitch a fit, or throw things. If you do these things, you will sit in time out.
I have a list of house rules that the kids made years ago. Sit down with her when she isn't tired and have her think up some rules for the house. Print them out and frame them. Hang them in a prominent location - the kitchen probably works best because everyone is in there all the time! When she starts to scream, point to the rules. Remind her that if she breaks a house rule, she needs to sit in time out. Ask her if she'd like to go to her room to calm down. Give her one chance to get it together. If she continues to be nasty, put her in the chair.
If I knew my kids were going to lose it, I often put them to bed really early. I'd give them a healthy snack, give them a bath, and plunk them in bed. It was best for them and for me.
YMMV
LBC

I think you did exactly right. Going through the same routine - predictability. Sometimes over riding her tantrum with routine is the best way.

Today my daughter sassed & pouted. Right at that moment I said, "I'm noticing your tired because your behavoir is different. Let's leave the park and we can read books at home." She was tired & had alergies, but her behavior had immediate consequences. Not harsh, but nipped in the bud as it is every single time.

Separate behavior (the way she's acting) and emotion (the way she's feeling). I don't think what I do would be considered "stick to ... my guns" rather calm, consistent, firm. Calm, consistent, firm whether my daughter is tired or not. I affirm her feelings but still expect a certain behavior. Admittedly, I set the bar pretty high and I know my daughter is capable.

No child (or adult necessarily) is going to "like" the enforcer in that moment, but being liked isn't what parenting is about, right? Discipline is about how to treat you and others, tired or not, and eventual self discipline. And when your daughter states you are mad at her, reaffirm your love for her but NOT for her behavoir. And be angry at her behavoir is healthy!!!!

If you are absolutely consistent, then her behavoir, her choices, will have predictable consequences. Switching it up only leads to confusion. I have more understanding about the behavior when she's tired, but she can predict what will happen when she responds in a certain way.

I have a 3yo and 18mo. They have their moments to be certain.

I would have to suggest stopping after dinner sweets. I would give sweets far more sparingly and much earlier in the day. Sugar has a very profound effect on behavior and shouldn't be used a motivator to eat meals.

As far as her defiant behavior: I give my children a count-down to the end of a situation. For example- we do naptime at noon every day. So, 15 minutes before nap I tell the girls (I watch 2 extra girls during the day) "naptime is in 15 minutes. In 15 minutes we're going to cuddle up in our respective beds and rest." Then I remind them at the 10 minute marker, 5 minute marker, and then 2.5 minute marker. I let them know about the process we'll be taking to get ready for naps. For example: "Katie, I'm going to change your diaper in a minute, after I change your diaper we'll have 5 more minutes before sleepy time..." etc for each girl. Then I follow the same protocol each time getting them each to sleep in their beds/rooms.

Some children require this "warning time" to disengage from an activity before they're ready to move on to what needs to be done next.

For your daughter, with leaving the park, let her know when you arrive how long you'll be staying. 15 minutes before it's time to leave start your count-down reminder. At the 2-3 minute marker let her know she has X amount of times on the slide left, or whatever she's playing with. Then let her know at the 1 minute marker you need her to come with you because it's time to leave the park.

One thing I do with my 3yo when we're at the park if she's trying to stay and play- I start walking away. I say "Well, it's time to leave the park Sophia. Mommy and Lily are leaving. I guess we'll see you at home." Then I walk towards my car. She usually comes to us hauling butt.

If she begins to act out and tries to defy you then you need to let her know that you gave her plenty of fair warning. If she continues to defy you let her know that she is making going to the park unpleasant and that you enjoy taking her to the park and would like to continue doing so. Ask if she'd like to return to the park ________ at whatever point in time- when she says yes- say "then it's time to go home. let's go."

When your child is over-tired or hungry all the discipline in the world isn't going to fix the problem. The problem is that the child is hungry/tired. You need to address the source of the problem, not the response to the problem.

If she's tired and not napping- you need to insist on QUIET TIME. Don't call it nap time. Change the name to "Big Girl Quiet time". That's what I do with my 3yo. I tell her "you don't have to sleep, but you do have to lay on your bed and rest your eyes for X amount of time." more often than not she will nap. If she leave her room just walk her back to her bed. Tell her the 1st time - "it's quiet time- you need to lay down and rest your eyes."
If she keeps coming out just pick her up, don't say a word, remain absolutely neutral, and put her back on her bed. Do NOT react. Keep doing it. It may take a few days, but she'll get the point and your lack of reaction will show her you mean business.

As far as hunger goes- offer 3 meals and 2 snacks a day. 16oz max of milk, little to no juice, and as much water as you can get her to drink. Keep her fed on a schedule. Don't cave and don't be a short-order cook. If you have the means to feed her- no child will starve themselves to death by choice. You just need to insist on routine and that you are in charge. By all means give her choices about her food throughout the day, but keep the feeding schedule rather rigid. For example offer her noodles with peas or a nut butter sandwich and grapes for lunch. If she chooses noodles for lunch and refuses to eat them say "tsk tsk tsk, that's too bad sweetie. I guess I'll put this in the sink, and you can have another opportunity to eat at X time."
Do not feel guilty if she refuses food she chooses. She will learn. I choose it, I eat it. Plus, the schedule will allow her body to regulate it's metabolism and all her body to anticipate a certain interval of food. She'll need to learn those rythmns for school when she will be on the schools feeding schedule.

Best wishes!

It's hard when they fight naps when they clearly still need them.
Do what you can to schedule outings early in the day when she's at her best.
Discipline when she's overtired is a losing battle.
It won't teach her to do anything better next time - she's too tired to know what she wants or how to act.
Do not be afraid to cancel an outing or activity in the afternoon if she skips her nap.
When you see the signs, steer clear of the up coming trouble.
On more than one occasion I've hauled my son off to his room with him kicking and screaming and then spent some rocky baby time with him on my lap in the rocking chair (for almost a half hour sometimes) and once the storm was over, he'd sleep and be his sweet self once he woke up.
They are like Jeckle and Hyde sometimes.
Hang in there! You are doing a good job!

My daughter is very very similar! What I've found is that she cannot deal with disappointment. The BEST way I have for keeping those meltdowns to a minimum is to keep a daily schedule (we have an order for the day's activities, not rigid timeline), and I have a very structured discipline plan. I have about 9 rules that are posted on the fridge with a corresponding picture (one she picked to remember the rule). They are in two columns. One column contains rules that are weightier in nature (hurting someone physically, destroying property, Rebellion, Lying), these things she has a spanking for. The second column (angry voice, temper tantrums/whining, table manners, not respecting other's things) get a time out. She ALWAYS gets a warning first, we walk together to the fridge and she identifies what she did wrong, and I give her a stern warning and tell her what the punishment is. Then if she does it again, we return and go have the punishment.

Now my daughters share a room, so doing naps for both kids is super hard as they times have to be opposite, and my daughter at 3.5 would spend hours settling down/rebelling about it and then 2-4 actually napping, so it finally got to be too much of an issue. I have allowed my daughter to not have a nap, HOWEVER if she is repeatedly whiny and naughty then she has to take one, even if she spends and hour screaming about it first. We usually don't have to do one.

Addressing the issue of what to do when they're overtired. I still do the punishment, because they need to learn that the consequences are the same no matter what. But then they go down for a nap afterwards so they can enjoy the rest of the day.

Its in a child's nature to be selfish and think that they are right and everyone else is out to get them. They will always blame us. I personally don't put up with that type of talk from my child. I put that under the "angry words" category and give a warning. I will not tolerate it. If the time out does not work you might want to do one until the child can humbly tell you that they are ready to apologize, rather then for a specific time period, say 1 min/age. My daughter needs to wait until she's ready.

Also when we first did time outs it was just an opportunity for her to have a tantrum in the chair, screaming, kicking, flailing. I did not allow this. I actually thought through some ways to prevent this behavior and now she knows that is not an acceptable time out.

I would say, you need to find a discipline method that you and your husband are comfortable with and stick to it ALL THE TIME. Build it around your child's needs. Consistency is so important at this age. If they are strong willed and think they can out smart you, they'll keep trying over and over and over and over, trying to wear you down. It took me about 6 months of working with my daughter, between about 3 and 3.5, to get peace back into our home, and then in the last 6 months, how to keep a good schedule to minimize the emotional breakdowns. They still happen, but not so often.

Best wishes. PM me if you'd like to ask me any more questions!

I figure it is my job to teach my child how to behave in society and the earlier they learn it the easier it is for them. Call me hard knocks but that is the way I see it. I take that to mean that if a 20 year old that worked at McD's got pouty and excused themselves as "tired" or "hungry" what would I think of that person as a manager? Would I be looking for a way to let them go?

Dr. Sears has great advice for discipline. lots of tactics that can work in a number of these scenarios. The point, is to do a method that works and then remain consistent... it is absolutely neccesary. For instance, no ice cream if dinner is not eaten. If she doesn't want nap time, she can have quiet time in her room... set up the consequences.

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/T060100.asp

I agree with B. When they act awful because they are tired I try to prevent the meltdowns before they get going. For example, if I know they are grumpy because they are tired I will purposely make something for dinner that they love and I don't give them as much. If they want more, fine but usually they aren't very hungry when they are tired so I try to avoid the battle. We cancel outings when they are tired because I know meltdowns are brewing. When they do have a breakdown, they still have consequences. I usually feel terrible when they get in trouble because it is usually my fault that they are tired in the first place. So as much as possible, I try to avoid things that will set them off and get them to bed asap.

my two and a half year old understands the concept of consequences, and often i will let her set her own. she knows she gets to choose between going to her room, standing in the corner, or getting a spanking. she knows what things warrant what consequence. sometimes she's harder on herself than i would be. i try not to let her get over tired, but the hungry thing rears its head often because she refuses to eat sometimes. i follow through with the consequence then offer her snack to see if that will help her attitude. sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. i found if i don't follow through with punishments when she's tired or hungry, she expects me to never follow through with them. after that she acts up a lot more. so i have to stay firm, even when she is tired or hungry.

whenmine gets that way he is told very firmly to lay down if he gets up and tries to play he is laid back down and told firmly to lay down within 2minutes he is out. and he will only be 3 tomarrow.

Sticking to your routine is always best. You did fine, don't overthink it. You just had a typical, difficult day with a tired child. Just be consistent. And remember, 3 year olds don't have to understand "why," they just have to know the routine.

As far as the overtired issue goes, I use the following tactic on my two and a half year old. I tell him he needs to go into his room until he can calm down, and take him by the hand and escort him to his room. Actually, I use this for alot of situations. If he's asked for ice cream and I've said no and he starts throwing a fit, if his brother has a toy he wants, etc. I save time outs for when he actually breaks a rule (hitting, etc).
The first couple of times he would come out right away still having the fit, but I would just walk him back to his room and say, "it doesn't seem like you're calm yet". Now, there's times whe I'm walking him to his room and he'll start calming himself down right away, saying, "I calmed down, Mommy". I find this works better for him because it's not really a punishment that gets him more riled up, but really just a way to give him some time to get a handle on himself.
Good luck!

While I am pretty strict and there is NO budging, I don't agree with what was said below about a kid (at any age) not needing any explanation. I have always hated when someone does the 'Because I told you so' as to why. That leads a kid to believe that if any adult 'says so' makes it right. That can lead to things we wouldn't even want to think about. Even if it's an answer like, 'Because mommy needs a break', that is enough to satisfy a kid below... say age 6/7. It doesn't need to be a detailed reason, but it's nice to give a child a reason. When I holler at my almost 3yr old about running towards the street and grab him... I tell him EXACTLY why I did that... 'You WILL get hurt if you go in the street.'

I refuse to give my kids anything after dinner if they don't eat their dinner... That is, unless they want what they didn't eat at dinner. : ) If they're hungry, they eat their dinner first... Even if I have to reheat their plate.

When mine (dd age 8 next month - ds age 3 in july) get mouthy, I ask them if they want to go to bed. When they say no, I tell them stop being mouthy then. If it continues, they get sent to their room and all toys get removed from the room. It's only gotten that far one time with each. They don't like that.

As far as being overtired. I don't fight with them. They go to bed. There's no ifs, ands, or buts. I tell them, 'You're overtired. You are going to bed.' My daughter tried the 'Mommy's mad at me' routine and tried to make me feel guilty... It got her nowhere. She stopped doing that when she got no reaction from me. I'd simply tell her, 'Yes. I'm mad. But I love you. And that's why mommy gets mad.'

You got some great answers to your question - thank you for posting it. I needed the advise about consistency, calm consequences, and love the lists on the fridge. I definitely change how I deal with my 3.5 yr old based on the situation. When I realize she is overtired I might give her more grace...nicer tone of voice, more chances, and more choices but I also still make sure that there is a consequence and I try not to ever let things go (unless of course the baby is screaming, and I am starving, and company is knocking at the door, etc. of course!). But, yes for the most part I am in the camp that consistently she can not act up even if she is tired but I suppose I am technically inconsistently because the consequence could be altered because there is a circumstance behind the behavior (the consequence may even be "harsher" then usual because it involves an unplanned nap, leaving the park, etc). Again - thanks for posting and all the great responses from some awesome moms!