Not sure how to do a link on here, but I copied the site below. A New Hampshire bill would allow businesses to refuse services to gay couples (such as wedding photographers, etc.).
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/r/30315990/detail.html
Yesterday, author Jodi Picoult (who has an openly gay son) posted about the issue on her facebook, speaking out against it, comparing the legislation to holocaust-era laws against Jews. I spoke in support of the law on her facebook. I personally think that companies who offer a service should be protected from lawsuits accusing them of discrimination for refusing said services to individuals who stand egregiously against their most sacred beliefs. It's the same concept as protecting a doctor who refuses to do abortions.
What do you think??
Wow, so many responses! What puts me off most is that some people have a problem with the analogy between the law and the doctor refusing abortions, but its perfectly acceptable to compare the law to the holocaust? What's the difference? Either way, its a ridiculous hyperbole, and irresponsible at the very least.
Second, I in no way endorse discrimination against any class of person. I have absolutely no problems with gays having every liberty that I enjoy as a heterosexual. I don't think its ok, however, to leave a person susceptible to lawsuits just because they choose to remain true to their religious beliefs by refusing to offer private services to a gay person. The only thing this law does is protect them from retaliation from such a choice. if you were gay, would you want to do business with them anyway? No...
At any rate... very interesting responses! As a christian it warms my heart that even the christian community has come so far with their acceptance. I just think that tolerance needs to go both ways. We need to accept that some people just want to stand firmly on their beliefs. That should be as ok as it is ok to be gay.
There's no difference from allowing businesses to refuse services to blacks, hispanics, women, or redheads. It's called discrimination and and should go the way of "Whites Only" signs on drinking fountains.
yes, and they should also have to use separate bathrooms and drinking fountains. We definately don't want them to get their gay cooties on us.
So it's okay with you for some businesses to post "White Only" signs? Discrimination is discrimination and all federal discrimination laws should apply. If a business openly wants to tout their anti-gay stance, they probably should go ahead so most of us can never do business with them again.
So if they were refusing service to White Christian women would you support this bill? How about unmarried couples, bi-racial couples or people with adopted kids? It is just plain stupid to support discrimination of ANY kind. And this is just plain discrimination so, if you cant stop "them" from getting married by damn you better stop them from getting it on film!
My God, where does it end?? It's discrimination. Let's stop the state and society-sponsored bullying of our fellow Americans.
Added: I'm so glad to see the majority of responding moms thus far who think this is flat-out wrong! Yay! Hope for our future.
It's also akin to refusing services to minorities who have different cultural beliefs. This is discrimination, regardless of what some may call it.
I truly do not understand why people are so against gay unions. What do you care who someone else marries? Just like I could care less who the guy/gal next door sleeps with, I don't care who he/she marries either. I would have no problem with my children or grandchildren see a gay wedding/union or discussing with them the idea of acceptance and to each their own. To be honest, my grandchildren are so non-prejudiced in every way that I doubt it would even be a thing to them. It's only a "thing" to us older folks who have grown up with discimination and bigotry.
That's the exact same argument that was used against integration.
What do I think, N.?
I think this represents a very scary and sad line of thinking.
It shouldn't be okay to discriminate based upon race, nationality, gender, or sexual orientation. Period. It's disgusting that in 2012, we are still contemplating laws that enshrine discrimination against gay people. Discrimination is wrong. It IS exactly like the holocaust-era laws on Jews. This law intends to set up gays as an "underclass," thereby making it okay to blame the ills of the world on them. This is EXACTLY what Hitler set out to do against the Jews. It is NOT OKAY. A wedding photographer can already refuse any client at any time by simply saying, "I'm busy that day, sorry." This law doesn't need to be created to protect business owners from lawsuits - the ONLY purpose is to codify discrimination. It's unconstitutional and abhorrent.
Anyone whose "most sacred belief" is that gay people and others not of their religion are wrong for who they love has some serious issues. And a low IQ.
In any case, businesses already have a right to refuse services. I can kick out any customer I want from my restaurant. However, I better be ready for the bad press and drop in business it gets me if I do it for religious or race reasons.
Well, I do believe all obstetrician/gynecologists should offer abortion services. Currently the doctors who need protection are not those that oppose choice - it is those who do honor a woman's legal right to chose.
And of course they should also provide care to blacks and Jews and gays (lesbians that is) and I suppose to Christians as well. If one's most sacred beliefs involve discrimination against other human beings, perhaps it is time to rethink those beliefs.
One cannot help how they were born...a gay woman is wired to love another woman. Someone's sexual orientation is their business only. For a person or business to discriminate against someone for this is mean, closed minded and just plain wrong. Perfectly nice people are being discriminated against for how they were born JUST like the holocaust-era laws against Jews or our past laws discriminating against African Americans or against women. I think Jodi Picoult got it right here.
i think this segrigation is rediculous! people should not be shunned for any reason (except child molestors and killers but thats a given). does it really matter if a man likes a man or a woman likes a woman??? no... take out your religious beliefs from the law making. its no different then racism. people need to just close their mouths and realize that these people pay taxes, are our drs, nurses, police and fire men/women, they serve our country etc. these people who dont want to provide a service (ie wedding pictures etc) what if you as a heterosexual was told im sorry i can shoot your wedding photos, or serve you at this restaraunt because i only serve gay men and women... see how silly this sounds?
now i was raised very christian yet i was taught acceptance for people who were different then i was. my grandparents never told me i couldnt befriend a gay person. we are all gods children in my eyes. there was a reason school no longer allows the bible and the bible should be taken out of the state thinking. there are too many people to force one groups views on the whole nation.
Hmm under this bill then they should also be able to refuse services to any different religious beliefs,as well as liars, adulterers and sinners of any kind and also the disabled and elderly. To me this law is silly. A wedding service business can simply say "I'm sorry but I'm booked that day". Why would they have to have a law to back up their bigoted beliefs? Also citing this law as a reason to turn away customers, will just guarantee that you lose more customers. This is the very reason that most gay couples do not seek out businesses, but only get referrals for "gay friendly" businesses from friends and loved ones. Which is sad. You shouldn't be afraid to ask for a business to provide services.
And to anyone who thinks this is a choice... when did you choose to be straight?
I think a private business should be able to refuse anyone they want. Even if I don't agree with why, it should be their right.
I admit I didn't read the article. And quite frankly, a business owner has every right to refuse service to anyone. But as another poster mentioned, just be prepared for the publicity. I also do not believe it's the same as a doctor performing abortions. One is ending a life, the other is celebrating life. *Oh, and I am NOT anti-abortion either. I AM a believer in human rights.
I don't get why this is so upsetting to people. I have friends and relatives who are gay and in 'marriages'. Does it have a negative impact on MY heterosexual marriage? NO!
My daughter's first baby shower she ever attended was that of lesbian friends of ours. She also attended the marriage of our cousin to her life partner. She is witnessing solid, loving relationships.
Would I be upset if either one of my kids told me they were gay? Only because of the narrow-minded attitudes out there.
By the way. . . many years ago, those who are left handed were once thought to be evil and the work of Satan. So my brother, mother in law, a nephew and niece would all be villainized if that were still thought of as true.
My belief is that it is not MY place here on earth to judge. MY 'job' is to love and accept all. Just sayin'
So should these businesses also be allowed to deny their services to mixed race couples who want to get married if they don't believe in interracial marriage? What about people from different religions getting married, should they be denied if the business owner does not believe in one of the religions?
Religion should have nothing to do with the law in America. Just because personal viewpoints differ from potential clients that does not make it right to refuse service. It is absolutely disgusting that in this day and age people believe it to be legal and right to deny anyone a service due to their sexual orientation. I hope to hell that law does not pass. I'm all for everyone having the right to be who they are and not be refused service based upon who they are.
The law would have very serious constitutional issues. The larger problem is not with businesses refusing service, it is with the state sanctioning a specific discrimination. In general, a business owner can refuse to do business with any client. The state and/or federal government creates certain protections with some interesting justifications...usually tied to interstate commerce, in the federal case. For example, hotels cannot refuse to rent a room to someone based on their race because that would discourage people from travelling. It does not matter how deeply someone may feel that a French-Swedish-Ukranian person should not sleep in their building, if they want to do business in the US, with all the attendant rights and responsibilities, them's the rules.
Sad that the feds have to step in like Mom and tell the kids to play nice. Stretching the commerce clause paper thin wouldn't have to happen if people could crawl out of their fear and shame spirals long enough to sell two paying customers a darn cake.
I think I've started this response about 7 times and I just keep erasing and retyping...erasing and retyping. But, essentially your argument is that if someone subscribes to a religious belief that homosexuality is wrong then they have the right to discriminate.
Following that logic, if someone subscribes to a church (and there are some) that believes, for example, black people are inferior to whites and would prefer to not serve black people, would that be ok?
Because, we wouldn't want to leave them open to lawsuits or make them feel like their religious toes got stepped on, right?
What about religions that believe that women shouldn't co-mingle with men, drive cars, etc. Should a man that runs a bakery be allowed to ban women from buying bread because he doesn't agree with the fact she drove there, or that she has her own money, or that she has the right to conduct business?
The wonderful thing about America is that you have the right to practice your religion AS LONG AS it doesn't interfere with the rights of others. When you start to discriminate by not allowing people to avail themselves of services you are offering to the PUBLIC based on their lifestyle/gender/race/disability, you are interfering with their ability to pursue life, liberty and happiness and THAT is not ok.
I think you should find another analogy to work with..Stating that "it's the same concept as protecting a doctor who refuses to do abortions." just doesn't sit with me..As a sister of a brother who is gay, it certainly hurts my heart.
I could say more, but seriously, it's not worth it.
I agree with you totally. I am not against what gay people choose to do, and I feel they deserve their rights and happiness and civil unions. But if a business or religious entity do not wish to celebrate in their ceremony that they do not agree with, they have that right.
Denying them for housing/food/employment/services or whatever is one thing and totally unacceptable, but choosing not to take them on as paying clients for their wedding services in which they will be working intimately with the couple is another matter. If they want to fill their time slot to photograph a straight couples wedding over a gay wedding, than that is their right. Small businesses ultimately have the right to pick and choose their customer base and paying clients. For example, if a church is against gay marriage, they should not have to change their belief system to marry a gay couple. If a wedding florist doesn't feel comfortable servicing a gay wedding, they should have the right to deny it, just like a bakery would have the right to deny making a sexually graphic bridal shower cake or a party hostess choosing not take on a client to host a party at a strip bar, or a painter denying to paint a house in a neighborhood they feel uncomfortable in. I am a balloon artist and party entertainer and get requests for sexually graphic balloons and junk all the time... it is my right to deny that, it's my right to deny working with people who make me uncomfortable and going into certain neighborhoods.
In reality, it is reverse discrimination to take my right away as whom I chose to contract business with.
I agree with you completely.
I love 3boysand me "just plain stupid'. That's brilliant, I agree heartily. It's the Just Plain Stupid Discrimination Bill of 2012!
:)
(Unfortunately, I believe there are enough 'just plain stupid' reps who may pass it.)
Well how about businesses start refusing service to people who have brown hair, or green eyes? I thought that our country would be moving forward and against discrimination not backward.
A doctor refusing to do an abortion is very different then not wanting to take pictures of a gay wedding. I am pro-choice for a lot of things and I think in this day and age it's time for people to get over being afraid of homosexuals. It is not something that is learned it is how they are born. For as long as there have been humans on the earth there have been homosexuals.
Love2readK my father made my sister use her right har when she was a kid out of fear of her being evil. So silly.
Why does this need to be a law?? I bet if any business owners told a gay couple that they don't believe they have the right to be married and that they didn't want to work for them, that couple would gladly take their money elsewhere. Ridiculous.
Really you think this is a good law? You believe it is ok to discriminate against a group of people? Where do you draw the line? What if someone comes into your business that has had an abortion? Is it ok then to turn that person away because that is against their most sacred beliefs. Again, I ask where do you draw the line?!
I think we have too many laws dictating what people can and cannot do. Businesses already generally have the right to refuse service. Why does there need to be a specific law for this case? If a business owner doesn't want to provide service, simply say, I'm sorry I'm not available.
I don't agree with refusing services to gay couples but I do think it should be that business' right. It seems to be a dangerous encroachment on personal freedoms for it to be illegal to say "I don't want to photograph your wedding." I don't believe any individual should be forced into a business transaction. It's different than the government discriminating. It would suck for a photographer etc to do it but I do think it should be that individual's decision or it's no longer an arms length, fair transaction.
So the assumption is that gay couples will WANT to work with people who don't want to work with them? Who will be rude and obnoxious? When I haven't wanted to work with someone before I've said, and made sure, I am busy elsewhere.
Someone posted that this is state sanctioned bullying and I agree. This kind of thinking, that it got get as far as proposed legislation, is what gives kids the message that it's ok to target someone who is different. Oh, and then when a tragedy occurs-- suicide, school shootings--we all wonder how it could have happened?! It happens because people like you think it's ok to teach kids, by make it the law, to target people different than you. Discsrimination is discrimination, whether it's a little or a lot. Please don't assume your religious beliefs outweigh my moral and ethical ones by passing this kind of law. Not to mention it's in full violation of the constitution.
So am I wrong in thinking that all businesses "Reserve the right to refuse service." In all honesty I if I were to decide I did not want to provide services for a civil union or wedding for any couple I would simply say "I am sorry but I do not think my services would be the best option for your celebration." I do not agree with the law, I do not agree with not accepting people for who they are but I also understand that some people will always think the same way and this will hinder their ability to be fair.
I have no problem with them having the right to refuse service. If I was a gay person getting married, I would want to know those kind of people were not at my wedding... I prefer not to have negative energy anywhere near something so personal.
Let them refuse, let them advertise, let them lose business... It is a free country and we should live based on capitalism. Believe me, the company will get weeded out as somewhere not to go with the spread of information over the internet.
I have to say I'm really tired of everyone expecting the government to babysit us all. We are not that stupid!!!!
I will not give my money to a place that didn't want it and I don't need anyone (government, law, agency or church) try to make that business take my money. There are plenty other places that see 'green' and that's enough for them and for me.
If you discriminate against people in your business you should not do that business. Allowing for others to discriminate on people based on who they are is not ok, that is why we have laws protecting people from it. would you be ok if that same photographer also refused to do inter-racial marriages? it is the exact same thing.
I just don't see where any religion holds as a "most sacred belief" that we don't do BUSINESS with people who don't share our beliefs or who are sinners. Really, show me where that is a held and practiced belief and I'll totally change my mind on this.
No, it isn't like protecting doctors who refuse to perform abortions... it would be like protecting doctors who refuse to prescribe diabetes medication to a woman who has ever HAD an abortion.
The ONLY wedding service that you can compare to the doctor refusing to perform abortions would be the OFFICIANT... and churches are ALREADY allowed to refuse to marry couples who don't meet their guidelines for marriage ANYWAY.
The reason why it makes sense to compare this to the Holocaust is that it is a LAW that sets out the rights of a minority group. Exaggerated or not, the analogy is there... it just ISN'T for the doctor thing.
Fine line. would I like any wedding photographers legally enabled to snub gays who took advantage of that right and refused to take their photos? No. I would hope they get knocked straight off their high horses onto their arses, lose all the glamorous event shoots, go out of business, and learn some ethics and human decency one day. But should businesses have the right to deny services to people for various reasons?..Not this reason imo, but I'm sure people can spin it differently somehow. It seems like straight up hateful discrimination to me, but what do I know about the law? Why should these photographers be protected from discrimination lawsuits if they're discriminating? I don't think asking someone to snap a photo of a gay person is the same as asking someone to rip a fetus out of a body if they're pro life.
Why does a law need to come into this issue at all? Why does the government need to tell us how to do our private sector jobs? If you don't want to provide service to someone (I think their sexual orientation is irrelevant, so I'm not going to address that issue specifically) then just don't take the job. Say you're booked! Why do your personal beliefs have to be outed? If your uncomfortable in the situation, there are other ways to get around being in it that won't get you pegged for discrimination, etc...which you can be persecuted (and sometimes prosecuted) for.
On a different but related note, I sort of see things like this like job interviews...employers don't hire people for many reasons, even if they might meet the job's requirements. They may not seem to be smart, social, or organized enough...are we going to accuse them all of discrimination? Of course it's discrimination against certain people, personality types, intelligences, etc! It's also a means to ensure the right "fit" for person to job, co-workers, etc. It's not always a bad thing. How badly would you really want to work with someone who doesn't want to work with you?
Oh boy.....(backing out of the room quietly.....)
lets turn the question around; I am a gay photographer that was contracted to take pictures of a straight couples wedding and I tell the couple my business partner who is also my *lover* will assist me for the event but the straight couple decides to cancel the contract because they don't agree with my lifestyle. Is this *fair*?
Although I have no problem with gay people (but I believe marriage should only be between man & woman), I don't believe a business should have to do business with anyone they choose not too, even if it's for anti gay bigotry, racism, etc. The business will eventually go under & have to make a big decision on their business practices.
How interesting, people say why sexual orientation even matters when it comes to doing business. If as a business owner you do not agree with homosexuality and a couple like that comes to you then just go ahead and LIE (say you booked, ect). Really????
My FIL is a pastor. His denomination started to require all pastors to marry gay couples because of the ammount of the law suits. He told his church that he would have to leave because that was against what he believes the Bible teaches. Well his church people were on the same page with him and they voted to leave that denomination as a church. It was a long and hard prossess , just so he would have a right (to not go against his beliefs)to refuse to marry a gay couple without being sued .
We are commended in the Bible to LOVE one another , we still can do it even though we do not agree with something.
So I am all for this bill.
