ok-I am going to start this with "If you do not have something nice to say--please do not say anything at all" I am here for advise on what to do--please?
I have two sons. One is 7 and is a sweet kid, really great, considerate, loving, smart and empathetic...and has the normal kids things and 7 year old things that he does wrong. He is the docile, easy going personality type. He is the tall, skinny kid and weighs about 50lbs.
The other is a 4 year old who is a really sweet kid, loving, and smart, but is a bully. BUT- only to his brother. He does not bully other kids, just his brother. He is the active, "Evil Kanevial" (sp) type. Very much into wanting to play fight and very "boy". He is VERY tall, built like a football player and weighs about 63 lbs.
It takes all kinds to be a family and a community and my kids are polar opposites in almost every way...from hair/eye color to personality.
Here is my issue. I have tried almost everything (WILL NOT hit my child) to get my 4 year old to not bully. He pushes, kicks, jumps on his brother, and is just really rough. He will get upset and hit his brother. I have been worried that he will break his brothers arm, leg, or fracture a rib. He is 4 years old, and last tested, has the strength of a 10 year old. He can knock the wind out of you.
This is the main part of the bullying--physical violence.
He will act superior when he does hurt his bother sometimes, and other times he will say "No! Don't tell Mom!"...but hardly ever does he say sorry or even acts like he feels bad for hurting him.
Timeouts work for a short time, If I do not keep him active all the time, it all starts up again--and I don't mean, bring him to the park for a few hours and he is fine...I mean I have to bring him to the park, followed by pump-it-up, followed by walking at the store, followed by riding his scooter, followed by swimming in the ocean...etc....and I have tried NOT doing these things to see if he is over stimulated, and that did not work...I tried keeping him busy, and that did not work, but did work better than only doing one or two things, or nothing much at all.
I know some of it has to do with his age, and he is a great kid--if he is not around his brother, he is your typical 4 year old kid. His brother does not bully him. He is affectionate, listens to him when he says to leave him alone, tries to help him--yes, they argue, like siblings do....but my 4 year old takes it to the extreme.
I need advice on what else to do, and what else to try... I am putting him in Pre-K this year, if for no other reason than to give myself a break. I am just so frustrated. No-one perfect, and my kids are not perfect either, and I do not expect perfection...but I do expect that they do not bully others.
And no, he does not watch TV shows that are violent, but does watch some shows with his brother that are 7 and up (Bakugan, Pokemon) But he has been aggressive since he was much smaller. It's his personality...I am just at the end of my rope of what to do...
**added--yes, his brother has pushed back, and has hit his brother--he is not perfect, and my 4 yo gets dramatic like his brother just broke his arm, but does not "get" that it's because he has had enough. Mind you, HE gets in trouble for doing that to his little brother too. Martial Arts would be a danger--even my older son's Sensei agreed with me that it would only makes things worse. And he was in Occupational Therapy for over a year for sensory/aggressive and they just said consistency--which I am.
**added-I want to say this again--He is not aggressive with other kids (except rough housing with other allowed kids to rough house) He has been away from me in a daycare environment at times (same place he is going to PreK), and no issues with other kids---he is around older kids all the time, as well as all age ranges (we home school), with no real un-age related issues. I WILL NOT undo everything I taught my 7 yo and tell him to be aggressive to his brother (and he has hit back)...I would not hit an adult, so why would I hit a child? Yes, he is allergic to gluten and casein and we avoid almost all soy, for this can cause aggression in boys...He is a lot better since we have done therapy for his sensory issues..and the behavioral therapist we saw 6 months ago said that yes, it is something between the two of them, but could no pin point what is going on...his theory is because I tend to try to protect my middle son, and he wants my attention too.... I do one on one time with both kids--and have shown extra love to the 4 year old to see if that helped...no difference. Yes, OT did help...he is not even 1/4 as aggressive as he used to be, once he learned how to control his sensory issues and how we can help with those. And it's not everyday...wow! People really take things to the extreme...
Thank you to those who gave actual advice, and were not bullies yourselves. My older son does know martial arts--he has been going for years, and does defend himself, but withholds hitting him 90% of the time. (Not for defense against his brother, but to help with HIS Sensory issues of the littlest touch hurting him-example: Rain hurt so much he would be in fits of crying...after OT and things done at home, he is 90% improved) He has an art for compromise that I envy at times... :) I will have my 4 yo retested for food allergies--but he does not eat anything with dyes (Feingold diet)..there may be something that has developed since the last test. I have tried many of the ideas on this list, perhaps I should have written those out... :)
I will try all the ones I have not tried, or try again some of the ones mentioned. My 4 yo has a Sensory disorder that does not allow him to feel how hard he is being and OT has helped so much with that. (example- just to get the sensory input, he used to run down a tiled hallway and land flat on this stomach on purpose--he is 80% better now) Not an excuse, an explanation. I have taken things close to him away, I have even told him *I* need a time out, or left Dad alone with them and gone and gotten coffee by myself.
He has a standing punching bag (used in martial arts)..and I use the PEC system with a step by step of how to calm down...he gets to choose 5 ways out of all the way to calm, so it's all his idea and we will walk to it to remind him and let him pick what he wants to do...he can move them and choose differing ways...plus, a range of sporting, bikes, and even running around an area of the house....And my boyz actually are very close despite everything. It is not as extreme as some may have portrayed this. I am trying to stop him from becoming a bully, and perhaps I phrased some things wrong myself.
So thank you again for the true advice and for all those who felt they needed to bully me...I feel bad for you.
I had a similar case with my 2 sons. I had to draw a hard line. If the words out of his mouth or his manner is in ANY way mean or aggressive to the older child he has to go to his room AND has things taken away, depending on how large the offense as to how much he lost. That cannot be allowed. They are best friends now.
HAve you tried putting him in his room and really keeping him there? I am talking directly when it happens and for the rest of the night? If not this is what you MUST try. He most likely realizes that the punishment for harassing his brother is not stiff enough to warrant him stopping it. You must make the punishment severe and stick with it.
Here is a different twist that you might try:
Tell him the doctor told you that he was most likely tired and thats why he hits his bro. So you have decided that he will go to bed each night directly after dinner. Make him do this for 2 weeks and do NOT let up. He will kick cry scream and beg but if you let him out it will not work. This method is supposed to really work.
It sounds horrible, but if the older kid defended himself, maybe the 4 year old would stop. He is getting away with being a punk with no real punishment. I just read what Megan C said, I agree. He needs to realize that getting hit actually hurts. I am not saying let your older child beat him up, but maybe turn the other cheek of he gets hit back just once. My friend did that when her son was hitting her daughter. She hit him back once and he realized that it sucks getting hit!
Sounds like he has issues that might need more than Occupational Therapy. I would suggest taking him to a pediatric psychologist/psychiatrist to rule out any neurological issues. And OT can take a long time to work, you might want to keep at it.
By the way, putting him in pre-k _might_ work, but it might just expose a bunch of other kids to his aggression. I would suggest this approach only if used in addition to getting him checked out by a psych. The school district should also be able to provide services if both you and the teachers feel that his behavior is outside the normal range.
Good luck. I've got a tough kiddo as well, and am working through some of the same channels I've suggested. (She's currently in OT.)
Then, he needs ANOTHER and better, Therapist. Since his year of OT, did not help, at all.
He STILL, needs that.
Nothing has improved, in the 4 year old.
Kids, need to learn that being a sibling means having each other's back.
It must be SOOOOOO oppressive, for your eldest child, to have a sibling like this. To be bullied etc.
I would wonder, about the emotional damage, that your eldest is having, from his younger sibling.
It really is... stressful. And kids, do not have automatic 'skills' in handling stress... and from their sibling.
I feel sorry, for your eldest.
It must be so unpleasant for him, every every every day.
What a life, for him.
I would really wonder, what kind of affects, his younger sibling is causing, in him.
He needs help too.
Again, GET ANOTHER Therapist for your son.
Because, that year of Therapy, for him did NOT do anything.
AND... I would get another developmental assessment, of him... because, he probably has other, issues. Which needs to be addressed and solved.
Because, nothing has been solved, in your 4 year old, yet.
Your entire home, probably revolves around the 4 year old and the problems he is causing.
This is no minor problem.
It is HARMFUL, to the older child.
VERY much so.
And I would worry about him.
You need to protect, your older son.
Siblings, should have each other's back.
Not treat each other like that.
To say the least.
Your 4 year old, needs more than OT.
Wow, tough situation. My 4y girl likes to wrestle, get aggressive with her 10y brother.
Me personally, I would teach the 7y some defense moves. He probably isn't defending himself because for 4y you've told him not to hit his brother. One good push back would probably help...
At our house 2 things happen when the 4y gets too rough.
1. She has to sit in the middle of the floor. No toys, back to the tv.
2. Brother is allowed to go to his room and lock her out.
I can tell you want doesn't work.
My Mom felt it was best for my sister (22 months younger than me) and me to work out our own problems.
My scalp is desensitized to this day from all the hair pulling.
We never actually threw punches, but sometimes the only way to deal with her was to knock her down and sit on her.
The fighting finally stopped when we grew up and moved out.
We don't get along to this day.
Personally I don't understand why it should be permissible for siblings to beat up on siblings when you'd never allow a stranger to do so.
Allowing your older one to fight back with your younger one wouldn't work because the younger one can't feel it and won't learn anything by it.
So - you have to forbid the younger one using the older as a punching bag.
Since it's not everyday, they are probably somewhat compatible, so you don't have to keep them as separate as you can.
Every time something starts up, split them up into separate corners and make sure the instigator has consequences.
When they can't play together nicely - they can't play together at all.
It may not eliminate it, but it should cut it down some.
You've already gotten some great advice... to me it seems like he needs more occupational therapy for his sensory and aggressive issues. And, maybe some counseling that could help him come up with strategies on how not to hit or how to deal with rage when it boils up inside.
Until you can get all that going, I'd put him in time out for longer than you've been doing. He's obviously decided that the consequences for hitting his brother aren't severe enough that he cares. So make the consequences something he cares about. How about if he hits his brother he can't play with his brother or in the same room with his brother again that entire day?
Last but not least - please cut out the Bakugan and Pokemon. Study after study have shown that shows with violence, even if it's only cartoon violence, promote it in young children. If your son is prone to this, don't make it worse by allowing him to watch it on TV. Perhaps he needs to have some quiet time in his room while his older brother is allowed to watch those shows. And when younger brother goes a full week without hitting, he can be allowed in front of the TV again.
I have noticed that sometimes we ALL treat our family harder than we treat our friends. We say things to our family members that we would never say to anyone else. Why? Because they are family and we love them and believe they will forgive us. And most of the time they do.
Your son probably bullies his brother because he loves his brother and feels comfortable enough to do it. My daughter is on my cheerleading squad and she is horrible sometimes and tries to get away with stuff she NEVER tries to get away with other teachers. I have concluded that it's because she loves me :)
I have a feeling that because your younger son is bullying his older brother that they aren't close. It's possible that your younger son is actually trying to get his brother's attention the only way he knows how. I firmly believe that personalities are born in a child and you get what you get. My husband and my daughter are constantly wrestling and it ends up in tears 90% of the time. It's how they communicate, but neither one of them have figured out to be gentle!!
Your older son needs to be trained on how to deal with a bully. I suggest martial arts classes for him. I was a puny, skinny little girl and I was never bullied because I had the type of personality that the big kids never messed with me. You'd be surprised how much training can help your older son. I'm not talking about learning to physically attack back or defend himself. It's all about attitude. Did you know you can stop a would-be attacker with just your words? Your older son needs that, and it's a lesson he can use his whole life so it would be worth it.
I also suggest getting your boys together doing something they BOTH can enjoy and then supervising it fully. For example, if they both like to play Candy Land, then let them play and you sit with them. As soon as your younger son seems to be violent, physically remove him from the room. You can bear-hug him so he doesn't injure yourself or him. Then try again with the game another time. What you are doing is fostering a relationship between your two sons based on something they can both agree on. And you are showing your younger son what the proper behavior is. When you remove him from the scene. Leave him in his room and don't pay attention to him.
Just know it's not your FAULT! It seems like you are carrying some guilt. You're just a human person, you're doing the best you can with what you have. It may be a long road, but you can do it! Keep up with the consistency. Also, as your younger son matures it may get better when he can get ahold of his emotions. Is he allergic to anything else? Sometimes it's a dye or something elusive. Just a suggestion.
Good luck mama!
I like the way you phrased the first paragraph of your post. :)
Since you mention the time outs only work for a short time, can you take other privileges away from him...things that he finds very important? You say he takes it to the extreme, so maybe this suggestion is too simple. You must be really frustrated. Hope you find a solution.
You have some good responses so I will just add maybe you should find a different therapist for his aggressive ways. Them telling you just consistency is not much to go on. A behavioral therapist may help. And good for you for saying you aren't going to hit your child. A child that has aggressive/sensory problems is not going to help the situation because he's not just a normal child who is getting away with hitting (from what you describe). I was personally taken back that you were called touchy feely because you choose not to physically discipline, geez give me a break. I would find a behavior therapist and find one that will help you and watch him interact with his brother. What does he respond to? Time-outs? Not being allowed to play with his brother for 5-10 minutes? (you hit your brother then you can't play with him). Have you taught him how to express anger? Have you found an outlet for his tough boy play? Maybe kick a ball around or get a toddler basketball hoop. Walgreens has a soccer and soccer net (toddler size) for $8 that could be used as his outlet. I would read the book Siblings without rivalry, it may help. If he is jealous of the attention tell him specifically that "when you hit your brother you will not get attention for it" and if he hits again take his brother out of the room and don't pay attention to him (you don't have to leave, but his brother should be out of the room so he doesn't get hit again). Good luck :)
I do agree with Everley, if he is watching TV monitor it very closely. No violence what-so-ever because it sounds like he will absorb it and imitate more so than another child would.
Hi K.,
It sound like you may need to ramp up your consequences for bad behavior; timeouts aren't working. I agree with the removal of privileges, whatever those may be. We were just going through a behavior issue w/ our daughter and timeouts, loss of television privileges, loss of outings with friends wasn't working. Someone suggested emptying her entire bedroom of toys in one fell swoop, only to be earned back with desirable behavior, and that's exactly what we did. One and a half weeks later (we just went through this), I can tell you we've seen a marked change in behavior from our daughter and the issues we were experiencing. She's actually getting her toys back tonight :) Just a thought and best of luck.
I would monitor him very closely, the minute he starts to take a swing take him immediately to his room and require him to stay there for at least 15 minutes and don't talk with him during the transition because you will be giving him extra attention. I know the recommended time out for a 4 yr old is only 4 minutes but he isn't acting normal so the punishment needs to be longer to make it stick. Also, when he hits his brother, maybe he should be required to do something nice to his brother such as cleaning his room for him, giving big brother his snack that day, giving him one of his toys, paying him money (if he understands the concept of money), etc. Maybe that will help him learn that in life you have to pay for your wrongs and make it right.
when my kids act like this, i have a 5yo boy and 7you girl. they can both get rough with one another. my son has a hell of a haymaker. :(. my daughter pushes when she gets mad at him. most of the time they play very well together, but then sometime, it's all day nonstop refereeing. i will either put the one in their room until they can behave themselves, if they come out and start again, they are right back in there. they get no attention at all while they are in their rooms. that seems to be most effective for my kids. they love to be around us.
Maybe your 4 year old would benefit from having some older friends to hang out with, sometimes. Like a teen boy in your neighborhood, someone to wrestle with? Where are you when he's physically hurting your other son? I don't think you should leave them alone together.
I would also be very careful how you describe your younger son, even in your thoughts--for example, don't think of him as a bully, or he will, too, and that is not ok. He is a very physical kid, and needs a lot of exercise, and likely doesn't understand that he's actually hurting his brother, or that others don't enjoy that kind of physicality.
I have another resource in mind for you, too, (nothing weird I swear :) -- I'll send to you in a private message.
I look forward to seeing the posts on what to do. The one thing that jumped out at me: You mention time outs but don't mention what other consequences you use with him. I'd find out his real "currency" -- the thing that he most would hate to lose in this world: Is it TV time? Specific toys? Specific outings? (At four, he may not be able to think ahead enough to understand he's losing an outing, unless it's scheduled for that day.) Taking away those things with a crystal clear link to HIS choices may work better,or along with , time outs. No negotiating, no second chances (at least not until he realizes you really will take away that thing he wants and the reason is his own actions). For time out procedures that may help you make time outs more effective, turn to books by Jo Frost -- yes, she's TV's "Supernanny" and she really is good at making time outs stick.
I'm betting you will get advice here to put him into martial arts which can be great -- BUT often not for aggressive kids, and not as young as he is.
I think it may be time for you to seek professional help through a therapist. There is a difference between being "all boy" and being overly aggressive. Maybe there is something that triggers his aggression or something that sets him off that you cannot figure out, and he cannot fully comprehend. A therapist may be able to help him work out some of his anger issues so he learns to use words versus his body to handle situations. Good for you for realizing there is a situation and trying to get a handle on it...it is never easy to admit that our children aren't perfect!
Have you spoken to his pediatrician about a possible metabolic/hormonal issue at play here? You may be encouraged to try an organic, clean diet as more and more children are developing sensitivities to the massive amounts of chemicals and hormones they are ingesting in mass-produced foods these days. It is the first thing that came to mind. Even if there is no physiological reason for the behavior, the pediatrician can put you on the right track to resuming OT. Good luck!
Just to add to what you've already gotten here, could he have a food allergy or sensitivity that is affecting his behavior? Try reasearching the link between rambunctious/aggressive behavior and food ingredients, or food dyes. I honestly don't know much about it, but it's worth a shot!
