Reward or Punish: Five Year Old and Night Waking

You guys should ALL move upstairs with her or move to a house where she feels part of the family--poor little thing. This sounds like Cinderella!

She does need to learn that she should not be waking you up unless there is an emergency (she is sick, had a really bad dream, ect), because you need sleep just like all humans. When she does wake you make her go right back to bed and don't drag it out or play into delays, just straight to bed, no talking beyond finding out the reason for her being up.

You do neither. She is sleeping a normal length of time and 6 am is a perfectly normal waking time. You may find she sleeps a little later as the days get shorter but maybe not. She is still a little girl and she is lonely by herself. She is probably also still getting used to getting less attention because of her new sibling. I would try giving her something quiet she can do after coming downstairs to be closer to your room (looking at books or drawing). You could also put a blanket or air mattress on your floor so she can come in in the morning and go back to sleep closer to you. You have shaken her world and you need to help her cope with it.

Wait -- Your 5 year old sleeps 10 hours (which is enough and is normal), doesn't like being upstairs alone (normal), doesn't consider the dog adequate company (normal), is jealous of her new sister (normal), doesn't like being in a cold room (normal), wakes at 6 a.m. (normal), and you want to punish her?

Certainly do not punish her. And I cannot emphasize enough that you don't want to punish her for baby-related jealousy, as it will make her dislike the baby and will create sibling rivalry that will last for years.

Others can give you advice on possible solutions; my advice is don't punish, and keep your expectations reasonable. Unfortunately, 6:00 a.m. is a common enough waking time for a 5 year old, and new babies are inherently exhausting. Expect to get woken a lot.

Enjoy.

Reading your SWH -- I repeat: 10 hours is not a "poor sleeper!"

you know, your posts over time have pretty much been uniformly about how to coddle alyssa, how to placate alyssa, how to accommodate alyssa, and how to find new ways to stress about alyssa.
so i'm a little surprised to find a post in which i'm actually feeling sympathetic to alyssa, who is expected to sleep for at LEAST 10 hours a day whether she's sleepy or not, in a cold room, all by herself, when she's used to being the center of the universe.
i'm not thinking reward or punishment for this. she's not doing it to be defiant. she's awake, cold and lonely.
if you're not a co-sleeping family it doesn't make sense to move her in with you. but i'd certainly shake up the sleeping arrangements. there are lots of ways to do that, including letting her sleep in a 'nest' on your bedroom floor for a while.
rewards and punishments are part of parenting, and i approve of both. but in this situation i think some problem-solving is very much called for before dumping it all on alyssa.
khairete
S.

ETA: I suppose it is a matter of time before a deleted question and a flounce. The SWH has already been changed.
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Are you kidding?

Your child is communicating with you and all you "hear" is that she is jealous and God forbid if she disturbs any of your sleep.

You are thinking this is all about jealousy... In reality, I can see where your daughter feels abandoned. New baby = she gets put upstairs where it is too cold with the dog.

She is 5 and she KNOWS you are hearing her but not "listening" to her. You are setting your foundation for your relationship for the future. As of now, the way she sees it... "Mom doesn't care what I think so why bother talk about it". Do you want that going through her head when she is being pressured to drink, do drugs, have sex? She KNOWS you KNOW that she is scared upstairs but what do you do.... make her stay upstairs and consider punishing her if she wakes you up. WOW

The reasoning you have for her to stay in bed is to not wake you! Come on.

She sleeps from 8:30ish til 6 and that is a good sleep. Some people are naturally early birds. If you want her to sleep later, how about spending some time with her at night at let her go to bed a little later. Better yet, you are only talking a little over 2hrs of being with her in the morning before she catches the horribly late bus at 8:40. Why not have a morning routine with her so she can get a better relationship with you. You DO need some time with just her and you have repairing to do right now. Maybe she would just like to sit with you for 30 minutes?

Don't just assume she is a jealous sibling. There is more to it than that and right now, she needs to feel supported and loved by YOU.

Life quit being about you when you had children.

A., she is sleeping as long as she can.
She wakes up at 6 because she has slept for 10 hours.
Where is your husband? Why can't he get up in the mornings and get her ready for school? It will only be a while longer until your infant can be put on a schedule that fits better with your eldest.

Either meet her schedule and you or your husband get up at 6 to give her breakfast and let her play until it is time to meet the bus, or let her stay up a bit later and let that time shift. I vote the first schedule.

This is why I was glad, the elementary schools here in town start at 7:45 and High school does not start until 9:00.

Little children need to go to bed early, so if their school starts early, they are ready.

I don't think this has anything to do with upstairs/downstairs or jealousy at all. This is expecting a child to sleep 12 hours a night. Most school age kids do not sleep 12 hours a night. If you don't want her to get up at 6:00am then don't put her to bed at 8:00pm. She is sleeping 10 hours already. She is not going to sleep more than that if she is done sleeping. My kids have never slept more than 10 hours! If you want her to get up at 8:00am then put her to bed at 10:00pm. If you want her in bed at 8:00pm then expect that she will be up at 6:00am. Teach her what to do in the morning so she doesn't wake you up. Show her how to get some cereal and turn on the tv.

It's not a reward/punish scenario.
If she needs to be near you that's fine but she should be able to come to you and sleep in a sleeping bag near your bed without waking you.
You get your sleep, she gets to feel not alone and goes back to sleep quicker than feeling alone and fearful in her room.
It's a win/win for everyone!

She'll outgrow it eventually but she's not 'doing this' TO you - she's feeling insecure (insecurity and jealousy are related - she could use some one on one time with you) and you're super tired (so it FEELS like she's doing this to you).
Nothing quite makes you feel like chopped liver like an attention stealing baby sibling.
Have some mercy on your eldest - she's still your baby too.

You're NOT listening to your daughter. That's the problem.

Your daughter has stated she does NOT like to be alone. Yet you have forced her to be alone. You need to LISTEN to her. She's waking up because she's ALONE..

FIX THE SITUATION. NOW. MOVE HER.

Here's my take - before sister everyone was upstairs. Life was good. After sister EVERYTHING changed. Not only am I alone upstairs and DO NOT LIKE it - I don't get the time I once had with my mommy...I have to share her with someone else...my mom is NOT listening to me, just because I'm a child doesn't mean my concerns shouldn't be heard and MAYBE just MAYBE taken into consideration.

You are punishing yourself. Stop the insanity. You have two choices -
1. buy a house that WORKS for your family.
OR
2. Move her with you.

If my 5 year old were scared to be on another sleeping level as me, I would fix THAT before I considered punishing her. Has she always been on the second floor alone? What did you do when she was a baby?

She went 4 years without school and without a sibling, now she has both. And the baby (at least in her eyes) is more important to you. You have the baby downstairs to make your life easier, but then get mad when she wants some M. time too?

You need to change the sleeping arrangements. For the love of God, do NOT punish her for hating to be alone.

She does not like being alone. You can't understand that. You sleep in the same room as baby? Let her come and sleep with you both!!! This is not a reward or punish scenario. Put an air mattress in floor in your room for her. Not many five year olds want to sleep on a different level alone. Has nothing to do with being jealous!!! Cut her some slack. She is 5!!!!

Gotta agree with most everyone... Your SWH says you hear what everyone is saying but then the rest of your comments don't really support that. You continue to say she's a poor sleeper but 10 hours is normal. Not sure one of mine always slept 10 hours at age 5. I'd have loved to have my kids in bed by 8pm but never did or they'd have gotten up by 6am too and that was too early for me. So they stayed up till around 9:00 even at age 5. I know you hear some parents with kids who sleep 12 but that's not necessarily "normal". And I have a friend with an almost 8 year old on another floor with a sibling and they both hate it and keep coming to the parents' room. You don't want to start a habit? Well - you had her in the habit of sleeping near you guys. Why should she be able to change that habit in instantly? And again - even kids who start off on a different floor don't seem to like it. You need to change the sleeping arrangements or let her sleep on your floor. Someday you'll look back and realize how really young she still is at age 5. I know it's annoying. One of mine has hated to sleep alone since birth. We had her climbing in with us well over the age of 5 till we put a mattress on the floor for her. But I really believed she needed us so didn't "make" her sleep alone and now she's grown out of it - to a degree. She still likes her door open while she falls asleep while my other child asks us to shut her door. People have different needs. I really really wanted to make sure I was responsive at a young age so she developed a sense of inner security.

ETA: well, your SWH is completely different now...

How is sleeping almost 10 hours a day on a regular basis "a poor sleeper"? I get that you're tired, as all parents of newborns are, but expecting her to spend more time in bed is a rather ridiculous expectation and frankly, not her problem.

See if you can push her bedtime back a bit so that she sleeps later. My school district also doesn't start early elementary school until 9 so my kids always went to bed at 9 and got up at around 7, and we had rather leisurely mornings.

If for some reason that doesn't work and you for whatever reason feel that getting up at 6 AM (which is when most adults wake up) is not an option for you, then yes, I would reward her for figuring out a way to not disturb you in the morning. At 5 there is no reason she shouldn't be allowed to get up, get herself a drink or snack (my kids liked dry cereal in the morning and would get a proper breakfast a bit later) and quietly watch TV or something while you sleep until, say 7. Then you can go back to bed later while the baby naps and catch up on any extra sleep you need.

Why don't you get up at six and spend time with her before school? I get being tired. I'm so sleep deprived that sometimes I just break down and cry, but parenting isn't always about ME. I know that needing sleep is a desperate feeling, but this time will pass, I promise!

If you are "managing jealousy", don't send her back to a lonely, isolated room when she is clearly done sleeping. If you absolutely don't want to get up at 6 am, let her snuggle with you in bed and look at books or play quietly with a couple of toys. She wants to be near you!

Based on your "so what happened", I have a feeling you will go with the reward and punishment system. I hope that you will listen closely to your daughter's needs

That is ten hours sleep, doesn't sound like a poor sleeper to me.

Just tell her what activities she is allowed to do before you get up and be done with it. Asking her to stay in her room so you can sleep sounds like a punishment in itself. I don't know if I would label it jealousy if you are putting your needs and the babies needs before her needs.

She told you she doesn't like being alone. That's where this is. If you guys slept upstairs with her before baby and since she was born you stopped yeah she's jealous and feels like she's being replaced. If your room allows it put a twin air mattress in your room for her OR the one that makes the most sense set up the baby's room upstairs and put a bed along with a crib in that room so your with both kids.

I commented in your other thread because I wasn't paying attention. :P

I just wanted to add here: Don't bother with token economies. They don't work and are a headache. Set the rule and consistently enforce it.

As for mornings... At nearly 6, I also think it's time to teach her how to stay out of the baby's room, quietly get some cereal (you can ready a bowl and put a cup of milk in the fridge the night before), turn on cartoons (you can set the channel and volume) and entertain herself until everyone else wakes. She's not a baby and doesn't need you to do all that for her.

Simple, set up a futon/small thick quilt in your bedroom, and tell her that when she wakes up in the middle of the night and wants to join you all, she can sleep there in her little pre-made bed just for her. Just please don't wake you up anymore, because you need to sleep too.

Don't punish her or reward her yet. Let her wander in for comfort and nearness. She misses you all. Nothing wrong with wanting to be close.

I guess I don't understand. You and hubby sleep in the baby's room? Why isn't your bedroom upstairs then? If you "with much debate, we put the baby downstairs" then you have your room upstairs next to hers? and share her bathroom?

If not then I don't blame her for not wanting to be up there all alone. What it sounds like is you and hubby have the baby with you in your room and have booted her upstairs where it's cold and dark except for one tiny little light.

I can tell you that I'd expect the kids downstairs all the time too.

With winter coming on I think I'd put both kiddos in that room and move me and hubby upstairs. I don't get why kids get the cold rooms and parents get to be comfortable.

Next time you look at housing keep this situation in mind. I hate split floor plans.

I would neither reward or punish.

Why not let her bring a book or small toys into your bed in the morning? I spent many an early morning (I mean early, my littlest went through a phase where she woke at 4am!) dozing with a little one playing or "reading" beside me. There were times when they would cuddle in and go back to sleep for a bit.

Your daughter is away from you for about 8 hours per day for the first time in her life, has a new sister and is adjusting to Kindergarten. Don't worry about a reward or punishment, her actions are emotional not something to be controlled. The more secure she feels at this stage of her life, the more peaceful your home will be.

9 1/2 to 10 hours is just about right for a 5 year old. Mine get up still 6:30, because the bus comes at 7:30. They are usually in bed at 8:30 and asleep by 9:00.

Does she seem overtired to you? My guess is she is getting enough sleep. She's just getting up a bit too early for your taste. You could try adjusting her bedtime. Maybe going to bed at 8:30 will give you a little more time in the morning.

Is she waking in the middle of the night? Or just getting up earlier than you would like?

My son did this sort of thing at 4 and 5 years old. 6 Am would be considered a normal wake up time for this age at our house. My son finally started sleep in his own bed through the night at 7-8 years old. Based on discussions with other moms alot of kids do this sort of thing until they are 6-7 years old. You also need to factor in the new sister that there will be some regression some where. 5 year old are weird age because they are old enough to be independent but they still want to be near mom and dad. We used to keep a sleeping bag on the floor of our bedroom, if my son woke up he would crawl inside and sleep the rest of the night. We did not make a big deal about it. We are having our 2nd child in October, there will be regression of some sort. My goal each night was for everyone to get sleep. If this meant the sleeping bag, that is what we did and I am willing to do it again. She may even just want to be close to mom which is still not unusual at that age espically after starting school. I would not punish her for her coming to wake you up because if she ever had an emergency you would not want her to be afraid to wake you. Remember also this is just a small phase of life and with time this too shall pass.

I would do neither. I would walk her back to bed, say it is time for sleep once, and the rest of the time say nothing. She will get the hint that it is not going to gain her anything to get up and wake you.

You can also do things like set the TV on a kid channel and give her permission to turn it on in the AM or let her get her own cereal or drink before waking anyone. Another thing I did was put sticky notes on the clock in DD's room. She could come get us when the big hand was *here* and the little hand was *here*, aka the time DH generally wakes up. I would empower her vs punish her.

ETA: I do want to add one thing to my post. 12 hours IS too long for her to sleep. If she's waking twice in the middle of the night, that's one thing. If she sleeps through to 6:00, that's something that is normal and the only thing you should do there is either get up with her or convince her to play quietly in her room...

Original:
I'm sorry, but I disagree with letting her come into your room to sleep. She may be 5 with a new sister, but she is old enough to stop coming into your room unless she is sick.

I can't tell you how many mothers come here asking how to get their kids out of their bed and out of their room so that they can feel like they are married to their husbands again.

Can you all do something about the cold upstairs? I would think that this would be very important. (I don't mean to be "cold" about the cost of fixing the problem, mind you...) Perhaps she doesn't sleep well because it's too cold...

At any rate, she is used to waking up and hoping that if she keeps trying, you'll cave and let her sleep with you. Then all 3 of you will be up half the night since you haven't sleep trained your baby.

I would do both - give token economy awards AND give a punishment for waking you up. Every night that she stays in her bed, she gets a star. Earn x amount of stars, you do something very special with her while your husband watches the baby. (Don't buy her something - make it time spent with you.) Wakes you up? MAKE her go back upstairs. Don't allow her to stay in your room, period. THAT'S the punishment. When she doesn't get anywhere coming in, she'll stop doing it.

My house layout is similar with the kids bedrooms upstairs and the master downstairs. My oldest was a poor sleeper too and hated being alone. Thus, we had a various forms of cosleeping with her and it eventually evolved into a rule where if she woke up, she had to go lay on the couch without waking us. It took the focus off of all the negative attention she was getting over waking at night and disturbing us. She also got to be near us and we got better sleep. So it was a compromise that worked for us when we were done with fighting over sleep. The "reward" is if she doesn't wake me, she can sleep on the couch. I swear, I didn't think she would ever spend an entire night in her room, but she does now at 8. Even now, if either kid wakes up, (because of nightmares or sickness) they get sent to the couch. Not sure of your tv policy, but my 5 year old is allowed to turn the tv on low and watch netflix for kids if he wakes before everyone although that usually happens more on the weekend.