Seeking Help/advise for My 8Yo Son's Tantrums.

I think the bike-losing thing isn't working. So stop that. Part of the problem is that the punishment is so far removed from the "offense" that he doesn't make the connection. You also have to choose your battles.

He wants to wear shorts? Fine. What's the problem with that? He'll get cold and he will learn. He'll probably have to stay in for recess. Oh gee - HIS decision. You can put a pair of long pants in the backpack and let the teacher handle his not being able to go out for recess. People don't get sick from wearing shorts for 30 minutes.

I also think he doesn't transition well. He may need more warning time before the next thing (leaving, going to bed, etc.). You can set a timer, or stop the activity he's enjoying before it's actually time to go.

I get the sense that you and your husband are rushed and low on patience. You have to stop losing it. Really. I know it's hard, but you are just modeling that "losing control" is okay.

I really think it's sad that you feel there's no time for hugs and kisses and asking what's wrong. Maybe you need to cut back some activities? How many things is an 8 year old enrolled in? If he has something even 3 days a week, he may not have time for down time and free play, and that's what he wants to do when you have yet another thing on the schedule. Cut back. He may just be tired and running out of gas. Cub Scout stuff all weekend? At 8? You really should re-think that.

And consider short cuts elsewhere - don't make cuddle time the thing you do only if the dishes are done. Use paper plates once or twice a week, throw a dinner in the crockpot 2 days a week, and have EVERYONE do their own laundry or at least help with folding/putting away. Get 3 medium laundry baskets - 1 for each kid and a third one for the adults. Sort and fold and put in their own baskets. Screen time or bike time? Once stuff is put away and the dirty dishes are at least in the sink. It's up to him if he wants to spend time arguing and having a tantrum instead of getting something done quickly so HE gets the benefit.

I read back over some of your past questions to see if there was anything that related to what you are describing here.

One thing I noticed was that it seems like you have frequently mentioned cuddles/kisses/talking time in the category of "if we have time", "if that time does not get spent doing other things", etc.

NO - there should ALWAYS be cuddles/kisses/talking time with your children. You MAKE time for that, and that is time that should NOT be taken away as a "disciplinary tool". That time together really can help to dispel all kinds of problems (as I think you know, which is why you say here that you "want to" spend more time that way).

Beyond that - in this post you refer over and over to "his bike" and "taking away his bike", as if that is a natural thing that everyone could relate to. But most/many children have a variety of things that they enjoy and that could be involved in figuring out a "consequence". Why have you and your husband become so laser-focused on his bike?

As for your son wearing shorts in cold weather, two ideas: you can either allow him to wear shorts and the "consequence" is that he gets cold, or, as mom in charge of the house you can feel free to pack away non-seasonal clothes in a place where he cannot find them!

Your son has a difficult temperment. I know that's hard. I had one with a difficult temperment, too. He had tantrums that were embarrassing and h*** o* him, because he had trouble calming himself down.

This is a long post - sorry for the length, but I tell you all of this to help you. Mine was 8 when I was going through this with him, so I DO understand...He is grown now, so I have the benefit of hindsight, which you don't have. So I'm going to be straight with you. Stop feeling sorry for him. If you do, he will know it and he will USE it against you.

This same son of mine, as a college kid, worked at a camp on a college campus as an RA. He had a group of boys under him 24/7. One of the kids, a 7th grader, was a holy terror. He was in trouble all of the time. It was a serious thing to send him home because like him, most kids flew in an airplane to get there and it was a month-long camp, which cost A LOT of money. And there were NO refunds for kids who didn't stay the whole time. Right before they made the decision to send him home, they asked him what he thought needed to be done to get him to understand what he needed to do to behave. His answer was that they not put him in positions that made it so that he lost his temper.

I'm not kidding. This kid was telling them that it was everyone else's fault that he was so badly behaved, and that it wasn't his own job to control himself.

The reason I tell you this is that you don't want your son to end up with this attitude.

I loved my son, but I gave him tough love for bad behavior. How else was I going to get it through to him that he couldn't act like this? YES, I did keep him out of some activities because they were triggers, but not to the extent that this kid had, and certainly not at this age. I would take him to activities that were problematic, after telling him before getting in the car what I expected of him, what exactly would happen if he didn't toe the line, and then do EXACTLY what I said I would do. Sometimes we would just turn around and drive right back home if he started getting upset in the car. Or we'd leave an activity very early. Or I'd tell him that there was no more of it for a week or two until he could decide that he was going to behave better.

It took a long time for him to grow out of this. As hard as it was on ALL of us, I kept at it. He's a terrific young man now. I'm so grateful that I didn't give up.

With boys, you don't talk them to death. And when they're having a tantrum, you put them in their room and leave them until they straighten up. And you NEVER give them what they want when they act like this.

As a example, my son had trouble playing putt-putt and bowling. The more he would lose, the more upset he would get, and the worse he would play. He had a perfectionist streak in him that was really awful for him. Did I feel sorry for him? NO. I wasn't going to let him have a tantrum over these two games and make everyone else around miserable. So he only got to do them once ever so often until I knew he had grown out of this. And each time I gave him the low-down that if he lost his temper, he would go home and lose privileges AND not get to play for months. That's how serious I was about this. Eventually losing didn't bother him and he started enjoying the games. But with his serious personality and temperment, he couldn't see it. I had to DEMAND that he see it and be h*** o* him to get it through to him.

This is what you must do if you want your 8 year old to be done with tantrums by the time he's 10. It's really ugly when a big kid has one. I have a friend whose grandson was 12 and doing this sort of thing that MY 8 year old did. Awful...

Bike riding can't be the only thing you take away. You have to have more of a toolbox than that. TV, computer, gameboy, Ipad, anything BUT books. You are doing the right thing by him getting plenty of sleep. My son could not manage himself without getting at least 9 hours of sleep. I couldn't keep him out or up late or he would have a big blow-up over something the next day. Every time.

If he has a tantrum before school, you put him in the car, drive him there and push him into the school without ceremony. You should have a frown on your face and tell him that you won't listen to his complaints. His job is school and he is to get to it. Don't bother telling him what privilege he has lost - you can tell him when he gets home. Make sure that every day when he walks in the door that he washes his hands, eats a snack and goes to his room for 15 minutes of downtime. If he has lost a privilege from earlier, THEN tell him.

Put away ANY clothes that are no longer in season. If he can't find his shorts in 30 degree weather, he can't have them on for you to tell him no. And yes, you get to have that power in the relationship with your son. When he finally figures out that any THING that he fights about, whether it be clothes or toys, disappears, he'll eventually stop fighting about it. You don't talk about it. You just do it and he will learn the hard way.

I hope that you can soldier through this, mom. I know it's hard. My son is still very serious, but a terrific young man. Stand firm, and your son will become one too.

Some of this you can head off by getting clothes laid out the night before.
In the morning they just get dressed and there's no changing their minds about anything.

Anytime the 'it's not fair' whine starts up - tell him:
"You're absolutely right. It's not fair. Nobody ever said life would be fair. You might as well get use to it now.".

How many activities does each child have?
Until middle school - anything more than one activity per child is too much.
I don't care if others actually enjoy running around like chickens with their heads cut off.
It's not a competition so if you aren't enjoying being this busy - slow it way down.

You want to "ask him what's wrong and give him attention".
So do it!
Try to carve out some one on one time with each child each week.
Maybe he can go with you food shopping or you and him just do something together with no on else tagging along.
Your husband should be doing this too.
Every child gets some one on one time with each parent.

If there's friction between him and sister - minimize their time together.
Keep interactions short and sweet and don't give them a chance to blow up at each other.

"I'm so depressed and bummed over this whole thing.".
Just remember - every day is a brand new day.
In fact - have a family movie night and watch "Chicken Little" together complete with popcorn.

You have to stay calm - for starters. Take a M. moment. Don't lose it as you did over the shorts. I get it - I've been there, but take a moment to collect yourself. Don't say "we're taking the bike" that just makes an upset kid more hysterical. Stay calm and say - the rule is pants.

Give lots of warning before transitions (is that part of the problem?).

Praise - so when he does well, he gets attention. When he does well - doesn't fuss, read him an extra bedtime story - that kind of thing.

I wouldn't tie this all to a bike. I don't really get that - no offense, but what does a bike have to do with bedtime? I'd say "Do you want a story tonight?" Yes mom. Then you need to behave. Then when he calms down, you read the story.

I have one kid who can be pissy. What works is time outs, but they are not time outs - in that he is free to go to his room until he can be mindful and respectful. Until then, don't bother coming down - we don't want your pissy behavior. I don't give him any attention for the bad behavior. He gets attention when he comes back down and is pleasant.

He's getting enough rest, but make sure he's eating good foods (sugar sets my pissy kid off) and my kid needs down time. He can't do a ton of activities. He needs time to unwind. So if he goes all day and then is busy once home - just make sure he gets enough free time. For him to do scout stuff all weekend, then church, etc. just make sure it's not too much. A therapist told me that kids are way busier and fussier than ever these days. Just something to consider.

I encourage you to reframe your thinking around natural consequences. Others have alluded to this: if he wears shorts when it's cold, the natural consequence is being cold. So think about a natural consequence for his tantrums rather than always focusing on the "punishment" of his bike.

It sounds like he is having some trouble with transitions. Are you doing a countdown? 15 minutes until bedtime, 10 minutes until we leave for school, etc.? Instead of just "OK, now!"

If he wants to wear shorts in 30 degree weather, let him. If he gets cold, he won't want to wear them again until the weather is better. If he doesn't get cold and puts them on again, so be it. You don't get a cold from being cold. Maybe he just needs to be able to make some small decisions for himself.

I would give him warnings before it's time to leave - I always warn my granddaughter 10 min. before time to go so she doesn't have a last minute meltdown. I don't think he needs more than the 12 hours of sleep he's getting. In fact, maybe he's getting too much sleep. That can make a person cranky.

My daughter experiences similar anxiety/agitation attacks just before leaving for something important. I've learned that it's essential to have a moment of calm before it's time to leave. She's much older than your son, but these situations have gone on for a long time.

One thing that I have to do is make sure that I'm completely ready, so that I can devote time to her before we have to leave for an appointment or a plane flight, etc. I stay calm, I make sure I'm not rushed. Yes, it's inconvenient, but her anxiety is not a behavioral issue - it's not that she's trying to be difficult.

I encourage you to examine what is going on in the mornings before school or church. Is everyone flying around in a flurry of activity? It could be upsetting to your son.

And I agree 100% with natural consequences. Let him wear shorts! Tell him that certain things are up to his discretion, like shorts to school, but not to a funeral or wedding, for example. Give him some power to make choices that soothe himself. Losing access to one's bike because of a temper tantrum makes no sense. Now, if he leaves the bike out in the rain, or in the driveway where it got damaged by your car, or if he forgot and left it at a friend's house, it's sensible for him to lose the bike for a couple of days. If he refuses to get ready for school despite everything being calm and his being prepared, then he's late for school and the teacher can give him an appropriate punishment for tardiness. If he won't go to bed on time, then he loses whatever he was doing before bed (like watching tv, playing a video game, or playing outside), and he'll have to spend an hour before bed just sitting quietly or reading.

The kisses and hugs cannot wait. They must be part of the plan for getting ready for school or church. I try and rub my daughter's back for a few minutes before leaving for the airport or for a doctor's appointment, to make that calming activity part of the routine. She's a little old for cuddly smoochy kisses, but soothing physical contact helps her.

It sounds like transitions are difficult for him. Have you tried taking time with him to tell him in advance exactly what is going to happen that day? And then give him advance warnings so he can get ready to transition?

For example, a written schedule (that you have to be commited to following) hanging on the refrigerate with:
What time breakfast is
What time he needs to be dressed by
What time exactly he needs to leave for the bus stop

Then, you give reminders: "Joey, it's 8:00, and you have to be dressed by 8:15." then "Joey, it's 8:28, finish what you are doing, you leave for the bus in 2 minutes."

It might seem like a lot of work, but many kids really do better with structure and a consistent predictable schedule that they know about in advance.

My son used to do this a lot when he was younger. We have learned over time (and through therapy he did in 4th/5th grade) that he has anxiety. He needs to know in advance when we are going somewhere and lots of extra warnings. Transitions were really hard for him. My advice for you is to not fight him over some of these things...such as him insisting on wearing shorts. It's not worth getting mad over and punishing him...let him suffer the natural consequences of feeling cold. Just let him wear them. I promise you it'll be fine. We lived in Alaska 15 years and I saw kids wearing shorts in much colder temps (crazy kids). My other advice is to always make time to comfort him, and hug and kiss him. Don't be too busy for that. Think of things from his perspective - it is unfair that he had to go to church and not his sister. But things like this happen in life. He has to learn how to manage his emotions and strong feelings without having a meltdown. The therapy my son did was very useful...he learned a bunch of tools for being responsible for his own reaction and behavior. It was many years before he outgrew this...it was a slow process. It WAS depressing and really hard for a long time. Teach your son how to deal with transitions and set backs...or get help from someone who can help teach him...and know that it is a long process of learning for some kids. My son is 13 now and he's SO easy and mature and reasonable compared to his younger self. Good luck.