Stubborn 4 Year Old - Temple City,CA

I know you'd rather she nap but it may be time to let it go. Her nighttime sleep will adjust over a week or so and she will sleep longer at night. My son is 4 and 4 months and we're transitioning to no naps now as well. Good luck.

Taking away privileges (such as toys) becomes punitive and a constant battle as you have already learned. You should use positive reinforcement. First set a routine that you stick to every night (brush teeth at the same time, read a story etc.) Then you can use a visual reward such as a star chart (big borad with the days of the weeks and a plce to put stars or other cute stickers). If she goes to bed on time with out getting up, then first thing in the norning let her put a star on her reward chart. After so many stars (start low the first time, like only 2) then she gets a special reward. It can be special time with you or a favorite book read etc... Continue increasing the size of the reward by having her obtain more stars. Once she gets the routine she will usually just go to sleep out of habit.

I have a three year old who just went through this. She takes a nap about 50% of the time. I don't give her a nap, but we have "quiet time" with a movie and juice. Sometimes she falls asleep, sometimes not. When she does not nap she will eat a very early dinner and be in bed by 7:00pm or so, if she naps she is usually up until 8:30pm. She has adjusted to the no nap and her temper has gotten better with time when she skips a nap. She used to be unbearable when over tired but she does pretty good now. To keep her awake until at least 7:00 we play candyland and other games she likes, plus it keeps her from behaving like a bear. Sometimes they just don't want or need the nap, the moodiness did fade for me so I am really lucky. Hope it all works out:)

sounds pretty typical. We had my daughter in part-time preschool, and had this problem. First, and I still do this, I put my 2yr old to bed in their room, and I put my older one in my room. We came to the point that if she wasn't going to give up being a grump when she got home, she wasn't going to be going to preschool. It worked for a while, but then we were at it again. I ended up taking her out, we do preschool at home, and we are out and about during the week doing fun things. What happened was that we changed nap time to alone/quiet time. We let older one do things that she can't usually do while younger one is awake. So we do schooltime first, then she plays with barbies, or draws/cuts/glues, or plays with hotwheels, etc. I was true believer in naps until their 10 :), but every child's different. For sure they need some down time to help them relax and rest, sometimes they'll end falling asleep, especially since at least one of the days she has book time and that usually knocks her out. She needs her rest, but just as important is your break. Good luck!

Sounds familiar! I have an almost 4 yr old son, and we went through all this when he was 2! I asked my pediatrician and she told me to put him in a different place, like in my room on the floor with a blanket, and just call it quiet time. If he sleeps, great, if not, oh well. To this day it still works. Some days he just doesn't need to nap, but the time spent laying there rests his body. Then when he is really tired, he does fall asleep. Try different times, and see what works for you. A half hour was too short for us, and he needed more time, but we have found what works now. He doesn't always sleep, but he has some down time without the screaming and crying. I had tried everything you mentioned, and it did not work for us either. At 4 you should be able to explain to her that it is not a nap time, just a time to be quiet and lay down. I let my son take one small toy with him as well.

What time is she napping? Maybe you are trying to nap her too early. I know its convenient to have both children sleep at the same time, but she probably doesn't need as much sleep as the two year-old. I'd suggest putting the two year-old at 12, then the four year-old at 1pm. Maybe "quiet time" for the four year-old between 12 and 1. Just make sure to wake up the kids by 3 or 3:30 or they will have trouble sleeping at bedtime.

N.

A. - My son is 14 now, but I remember very well that after he turned 3 his naps became more & more infrequent. By 4 he was done! The only hard & fast rule I had after that was putting him down for the night at eight. I don't think you can force naps, just make sure they have plenty of activity during the day so it won't be hard to get them to bed at night!

Hi A.,

Age 4 is a very stubborn age. Congratulations! Your daughter is right on schedule. It's hard when they start to skip naps. Punishment is not a good thing...she shouldn't be punished for being. In the mid afternoon can you pop her in the tub? Maybe it will soothe her and she'll fall asleep. Or, have very quiet activities so she'll at least rest. She really is at the age where many kids stop napping but the transition isn't always pleasant. Good luck.

V.

Hi A.,

It definitely sounds like it's time to give up her daytime nap (I know you don't want to) You'll have to bump up bedtime so she'll have a longer night's rest. My four year old hasn't napped in about a year. When they don't need it anymore it's very difficult for them to fall asleep is at all so that's what's behind the bahavior. You could require her to have a "rest or quiet" time instead of the nap where she doesn't have to sleep. Good luck! K.

Hi A.,
i don't have this experience, YET. but an idea that comes to mind is to put require that she stays in her bed for QUIET TIME (rest time) even if she doesn't go to sleep (try to close the curtains, dim the lights etc). Give her some books or some "non-noisy" toys. Maybe explain to her that she might as well sleep because she's going to be there anyway. I read about this somewhere (I think it was BABYCENTER.com) that giving your child "quiet time" would be a healthy and helpful alternative to sleep - that will give her body a rest and help her re-energize. They advised to explain to the child that everyone must rest each day to have more energy to play later. Try making this a routine and see how it works. I would start by making her feel like it's her choice. My personal strategy would be to ask her if she wants to sleep (of course, she'll say no). Then tell her that she has 2 choices: sleep or quiet time in her bed for 2 hours). She can only choose one or the other. And she is not allowed out of that bed until the 2 hour is up. Maybe put a clock in her room and tell her when the clock says a certain time, she is allowed to come out. You never know, she might just decide to sleep while she's there.

sorry if this suggestion has already been given. i haven't read the other posts.

Have you tried reasoning with her--helping her notice the consequences of not napping on her mood and inability to stay awake at dinnertime? Since you can't force someone to fall asleep, getting into a power struggle isn't going to work.
You might also try using the essential oil blend Peace & Calming made by Young Living. You could rub it on her or diffuse it into the air.
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My little 4 year old would prefer to stay awake and hang with us, however, same with you, if he doesn't get a nap, he has the worst behavior and I can tell he is not happy. Because being big is a huge thing for my son, we talk about how important it is to rest because it is when we sleep that we grow. He then snuggles right away for his nap. Maybe find something that is really important to your daughter, being smart, being fast, having friends, etc. and use that to help her understand the importance of resting.

Sounds like you have a 4 year old who is over taking naps! You can't make them fall asleep if they can't.

I went through the same thing. Bedtime in my house now is 6pm. Dinner around 4:30pm. Bathtime around 5:30pm and my 4 year old is sound asleep between 6pm-7pm and very well rested and bright eyed in the AM.

It was an adjustment, but once I realized I was fighting a losing battle, I just had to readjust the family plan and it worked.

It's HARD when naptimes are over. But you'll get through it.

Just don't punish and force her to sleep. If she's not tired enough to sleep-she can't really help it.

Hi A. you know that alot of people say terrible 2's, I say terrible 4's. I am a mother of a 6 year girl and a 5 year old boy. Both of them drove me to the edge everyday at 4. It is the I have my own opinon stage of life. They believe that they can make all their own decisions and will try it all to prove it!!! It's like a 16 year old stuck in this little body. I think it is all just a learning experience for them. It gives them a sense of independence. If you can find certain things that she can make a decision on by herself it will help, at least it did for me. Something simple like let her pick out her outfit for the day or even just the shoes she is going to wear. This will make her feel like she has alittle control. You just have to let her know mom and dad still make the roles, but you can help out by whatever it is you feel she can help do. But let her know if you don't nap you can't help out with the big girl stuff!!! This really helped me out!!! And a word of advice boys are way less dificult with the control thing!!! She wants to sleep when she wants to not when you want her too!!!
Best of Luck
W. E.

At this age, although they are tired and "need" to nap, they don't want to nap. It's part of the ages and phases. Perhaps, since she is at preschool... don't they have a nap time? If she only attends preschool for a half day, perhaps just have her stay longer so she gets to "nap" there? Some parents do that.

And yes, at this age, (actually from 2 yrs. until 4 yrs.) they are still quite stubborn. Terrible 2's is actually terrible 3's and 4's too. But yes, they need to learn and we try to corral them and have boundaries. My girl was the same way. She is 5 now, and I have gotten her in the routine to nap. Otherwise, she turns into a fussy grumpy girl by dinner time, and it is NOT pleasant. And, she actually does better when she naps... she even admits this.

When my son naps in the afternoon, I tell her it's her nap time too... or at the least "quiet time." It took many strong willed storms.. but I kept at it. My girl would laugh at me too. I just KEPT at it. Instead of telling her "it's time for nap..." I would tell her "where are you going to nap? go make your place...." (only in the afternoon do I let her "choose" a spot to nap and this seems to "give" her some sort of control over it all, which I don't mind. We pick our battles). Then, she will actually go and fluff up her blankets and get her stuffed animals and lie down, eventually falling asleep. Meanwhile, as she is winding down to nap, I don't talk or make noise... I don't interact. If she tries to talk story with me, I just keep repeating "nap time." Also, I have found that, instead of having her nap in the same room as her 1 yr. old brother... I let her sleep in her "own" spot, and this seems to work, for us and her. I gave up with the toy withholding and bribing with treats things. Now, I just keep it to the point, no debating, and just tell her the bottom line. She realizes she can't debate with me about it, because I won't.

Believe me, I went through LOTS of battles with her about this too. After she gets home from school, I do the SAME routine with her everyday. Have a snack, unwind, do homework, and then it's nap. My Husband also talked with her about it and echoed the same thing to her, she needs to nap, or at least have quiet time in the afternoon. I explain to her that I will not play with her either. She's a big girl and this is her responsibility. She likes that logic, because she likes to "feel" "responsible. We make like this is her "job" and it helps Mommy when she naps.

A couple days out of the week, I let her have a "nap" day off. She can do whatever she wants, but it must be calm and quiet so as not to interrupt her brothers nap... AND even if she is tired, she is to try her very best not to tantrum or get grumpy. I tell her it's okay to feel grumpy and tired, but not to take it out on others. She can tell me anything about how she feels and I will listen and hug her, but, no being grumpy at other people when she's tired. She understands this and does try her best.

We give her verbal reinforcement and tell her we are proud of her for trying her best, and lots of hugs. She responds to this.

I know it's not easy. But yes, we know our little ones and even at this age, they get tired in the afternoons and fussy. Mine does too. So, I have found this ROUTINE and repetition and keeping at it has made the difference. It takes LOTS of effort, but now, my girl knows this is her routine. Naps even at this age helps... it's important for them and keeping their moods normal. Lack of sleep produces grumpiness. Everyday is different, but most days my girl is definitely tired and will nap. On days she naps, she still goes to bed at the same time, 8:30, and falls asleep fine, even with her afternoon napping.

I really feel for you. Keep trying, and good luck.
~Susan
www.cafepress.com/littlegoogoo

Could you try getting her down to bed at night 15 minutes earlier over the period of one week or so until she's getting down an hour earlier? What about a late afternoon car ride to get her to sleep? Preschools have a lot of luck with getting kids to sleep...could she go to school 3 full days rather than 5 part-time? I find the begging and pleading and fighting never works, as it becomes a power struggle. What if you "gave up" for a while, and adjusted to what she's doing? My 2 year old recently stopped napping and I flipped out. I was more upset that I wouldn't get to have 2 hours alone anymore, and I became sad and bitter for a week. Then, I decided to be happy with it and I looked at the bright side...no more "having" to be at home, more time together, etc. Now, I go through the ritual of nap time, but he seldom take one. He usually crashes late in the afternoon, which isn't ideal, but it works for us much better than the fighting, pleading and pain at naptime. I don't know a ton of four-year-olds who still nap, so maybe she's at that in between stage. Could she have quiet play-time, or a movie during that nap instead? I wish you luck, I know it's very hard!

I really think she is ready to give up the nap and go to bed earlier. I know it is hard to give up the nap because, one, that means she is growing up and, two, it is such a nice break for you!

Instead start trying "quiet time" Tell her she needs to do thirty minutes of quiet time and if she stays in her room and plays quietly she can get some kind of reward. If she is really tired that quiet time will turn into a nap and if she isn't tired then she can play quietly. We do this with our 4 year old. It works for us. Hope this helps!

A 4 year old is pretty much over naps. Both my kids just turned 3 when they gave them up, and most kids I know are around that age when they gave them up. She will be grouchy for a while, but eventually she will get used to a new schedule and sleep longer at night.

I don't know at what age kids stop taking naps, but i run a daycare and age 4 is when they tend to start not taking naps. When they are 5 they start kindgergarten and the schools do not give the kids naps. In my care when it is naptime the younger kids sleep and my 4 year olds get their pillows and blankets and lay down. They get books or I pop in a movie. Sometimes they fall asleep and sometimes they don't. They are resting and it is what they need, not necessarily sleep. If they are sleepy they will sleep, but their bodies need to be rested. I have a lot of boys in my care and I make them a little fort with blankets and chairs and they lay in it and play together quietly and watch tv. Maybe try the fort for her or buy those little princess or Dora pop up tens for kids and put in the the living room. She can bring whatever she wants as long as she lays down and watches tv, plays barbies, colors etc...

I haven't been throiugh this myself, but I've seen this work.

Try setting up a quiet reading nook for her (like a fabric tee-pee or a sort of "fort"). Make sure to have lots of pillows, her favorite stuffed animal and a blanket inside. This now becomes her special place only to be used when little brother is napping and only by her. This way it isn't her bed she has to be on because she is likely to see through that one.

If you turn "nap time" into "big girl quiet time" she is very likely to be more amenable to this and will often fall asleep anyway if she takes it seriously and spends it as "quiet time".

I am sorry to say this, but I think naptime is over for the most part! My daughter is 3 and just gave up hers too. It was a struggle to put her to sleep at nap time too. What I did was bring her blanket down to the couch and put on a movie or a TV show for her and told her she needed to rest. Somedays she sleeps, most days she doesn't. If she doesn't take a nap, this just means earlier bedtime! When my daughter was taking a nap, I would struggle to get her to go to sleep at 8. Now 8pm and all is quiet in mommyville for me!

You can try to put her in another room...and tell her it is quiet time. No playing with toys...the room needs to be dark...or she can read books quietly. She just may need help winding down. I had to lie on the floor in my twins room or right outside their bedroom(in their toyroom) to make sure they were quiet and not playing.

Unfortunately - I think it is one of those phases that you may have to muddle through. I think one of the most important things is consistancy. I know the laughing is tough. My two year old is doing that right now. She apparently thinks Mommy losing her mind is funny. I just pick her up and put her in time out. I understand not wanting to give up her naps. Maybe try shortening her nap little by little. My four year old son doesn't nap anymore - he has quiet time. He stays in his room while his sister naps. He can read books, play legos or watch a DVD on the portable player. Sometimes he falls asleep. I know that might be hard given the shared room. Just know that eventually it will be okay - I know it doesn't feel like when you are in the middle of it, but it will get better.

Hi you should try what my mom did to me when I was small and hiper.She made up the nap fairy and if I went to sleep with out ant prob the nap fairy would leave me a little fairy juice
==(sweetner ,water and food color )mine was blue.And if she ran out of juice it was gum.And by the way when they ask were the fairy juice comes from its the flowers dont you know.It worked for me and I have told this to a few other moms and so far it works 100%.Good Luck .Let me know if it works

I think she's tring to differentiate herself from the baby. Sometimes you have to really stick to your position, because kids will test you to see how long it takes for you to give in (nothing personal, all kids have to test their boundaries to know where they are). I know you look forward to this time so that you can get some other things done, but you should rise to the challenge here and don't give in. Reading aloud helps and its good for you too. Even if she doesn't sleep, the siesta is a good thing.

Many children give up their naps at 4. It is developmentally appropriate, though tough on parents and caregivers. You might consider shifting your energy to getting her to sleep long enough at night so that she will not be grouchy instead of trying to compel her to nap.

Hi A.:
Your daughter isn't stubborn,or having a disapline problem. She is nearly kindergarden age,and is a normal, active,growing child.I would agree however, that you may have a problem,admitting that she is getting older,and that you aren't going to have that (free time) she graciously gave you each day,by taking a nap.: ) At your daughters age,she should be active all day,and even if she isn't being physicaly active, her little mind,is racing.Demanding her to lay down and sleep in the middle of her day, is like slamming on the brakes of a 200mph race car!Your expecting to much from her.You can continue driving yourself nuts,and making her miserable,or begin treating her like a four year old,and altering both your daily routines. best of luck to you.

A.,
You cannot make your daughter sleep. If you are desperate to keep the nap then try rewarding her for taking a nap. She may be almost done with naps so require that she have a quiet time where she plays quietly, watches a movie, reads books, has a little quality alone time with you. You can't win this one so stop letting it be a negative and make it a positive. Good luck!

My son is 4 1/2. He gave up naps at 3yrs. because when he took a nap he would stay up until 11:00pm. I think your daughter is probably on her way off naps. I know it's a painful thought and transitions are always hard, but hang in there and try to stretch her day out and gradually she'll get less cranky. Your son can rest and maybe you two can enjoy some special one on one time which is maybe what she's missing and why she's acting out?
I always think, when my son seems a bit more challenging, that I know he'll get back to his sweet self, that it's just around the corner.
Good Luck!!!

A.,

My girls had such a hard time napping. It was like corporal punishment. However, when they were at preschool they fell asleep without much question. The difference was " quiet time". Tell your daughter she is really big now and nap time needs to turn into quiet time. During this time she can watch her brother sleep ( if she is not going to be a pest), read a book or play quietly on her bed. If she doesn't need a nap she will stay awake. If not she might drift off. The whole idea of nap stressed out my three girls yet clearly they needed to sleep becuase their behavior was declining. The second we got in the car they were asleep. I took the preschools same pattern and let them know that they didn't have to sleep. But they usually did anyway. I hope this helps.

My daughter starting hating naps at three years old. I finally stopped pushing and our afternoons became calmer. I don't think you can force someone to sleep if they don't really want to. Let her stay awake but do a quiet activity. Maybe give her dinner and put her to bed earlier, with routine, so she knows it's time for it. My daughter is five now, boy I miss the naps.
Good Luck.
M

I know where you're at A....I have a 4 year old too! From everything I've read, they are starting to get out of the whole nap thing around 4 years old. My daughter will take some naps at pre school...but absolutely none at home. I think she feels she's going to miss out on something! :-)

Sometimes we get the grumpies in the afternoon...but truthfully, if she'll stay awake in bed and play quietly, that is decent rest too...for a nap at least.

Also, I try laying her in my bed so she can watch cartoons. She almost always falls asleep!

Good luck!

S.

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Try rewarding the 2.5 yr old for taking a nap, ice cream or stickers or something. Do this with big smiles and hugs and kisses, and just calmly say to your daughter that had she gone down for some quite time (she may be passed the age for needing sleep) she would have gotten a reward too. The calmer you are with the delivery, they better this works, being riled up only gives her the power (and apparently makes her laugh). Rewarding good behavior sometimes works better then punishing for bad behavior. It worked with my nephew, whenever he didn't do what I wanted and my son did, my son got a reward (Batman stickers). Soon my nephew was coming to me and asking for a sticker because he had done what he was told. Children at this age are very "me" oriented, and if she sees that little brother gets rewards and she doesn't, she'll be singing another tune.

Based on my experience as a teacher and as a mother of a toddler and infant, I don't think that you can force someone to sleep, although you might be able to force someone to stay in his or her bedroom. I don't advise trying to force a child to sleep as attempted force will probably just make her more determined to stay awake. I also don't advise physically punishing her for not sleeping as corporal punishments will also probably just make her more determined to stay awake. On the days my toddler walks far, climbs a lot and hangs around a lot of other people, he falls asleep easily. Does your daughter get a lot of exercise? You might try to give her more chances to vigorously exercise.

Good luck,
Lynne E

My four year old doesn't like nap time or rest time either, she doesn't nap anymore, we've moved to rest time. Many days while the other two children are napping, we have mommy and me rest time where we cuddle up on the couch and read books for 20 min to half an hour. She is much more pleasant and more willing to comply with requests when she gets that alone time. Some days i can't rest with her so she gets the option of having some quiet time either on the couch (or her bed) with books or sitting next to mommy watching whatever i need to do. I explain to her that i have some things that need to get done during rest time so she can have her own rest time or be near me quietly. It doesn't always work, but she's usually more willing when she has a choice. I think what my daughter wants most is some mommy/me time. You say your daughter goes to preshcool 5 days a week, maybe she just wants some mommy/me time and is defiantly demanding it.

My daughter stopped taking naps at 1-1/2! Count your blessings she made it this far. She was very grouchy at that age and still gets grouchy at 10 when she's tired, but won't go to bed early. She's very alert to the world and has a hard time with not wanting to miss anything. When I look back on that frustrating time, I just wished I had enjoyed her more. They grow up so fast, and I always look back and just wished I had the foresight to just love her more every day and every minute that I had with her!! This is alone time for you and your little girl - eat it up!!

Give it up...the child is done with napping at home. My oldest daughter gave up her nap at 3 and she would fall asleep in her soup also. For a while, we adjusted our mealtime routine and I fed the kids early so she could at least eat before falling asleep. I used to put her to bed at 6:30 at night!! My youngest gets droopy during mealtime on days she does not nap, but we can snap her out of it and she gets a second wind and seems to suffer no ill effects with a slightly earlier bedtime (1/2 hour or so). She will nap 1-2 times a week and she just turned 3.

No doubt, giving up the nap is an adjustment for her body and also for your schedule, since she will require an earlier bedtime, but, really, she is four and she might be done with napping. Try giving her "quiet time" by requiring that she stay in one room or in one place and she can play with whatever quiet activities - coloring, looking at books, playing with dollies, or heck, even watching Mr Rogers. Set the timer and when it rings, quiet time is over (I started with 1/2 hour and gradually increased by increments up to 1 hour once she got used to playing by herself.) Her room was trashed by the end and sometimes she even fell asleep, but I got an hour to myself at least.

Hang in there, kids evolve, so we must also.

My older daughter is about the same age so I can appreciate your situation (we also have a 9 month old daughter). I just went to a pre-kinder meeting with several kinder teachers. One of their suggestions was to start weaning them from naps so they will be able to manage school (something I hadn't thought about). In keeping that piece of advice in mind, could you designate a different place in the house for her to "rest" with soft music or some kind of white noise (we use a fan). I would tell her that though she is a big girl, her little brother needs all that rest for growing. My big girl has to rest and usually CHOOSES to sleep for a while.

Nap times can be hard for children as old as 4, and many people give up about that time. But if you think it is still important, this is what I would try...
For a few days, put your good napper on your bed so he is not disturbed by your daughter, and establish a routine for your 4 year olds nap time-a story maybe. The only think you can instist on is that she stay on her bed and rest quietly. You can't really make her sleep. She has to lay quietly for an hour, then let her up with lots of praise. Don't punish her for not sleeping; tell her good girl for spending some quiet time. I bet by the end of the week she will give up the power struggle and fall asleep.

Hi A.,

Thanks for your message-I can definitely relate. We too, have a 4 year old little girl...we started with the naptime struggle at about 3 &1/2 years. Doctor and friends told us at the time most kids stop taking a nap around that age-so we stopped pushing it. There are a couple of ways I have heard to handle it. Turn nap time into 30-45 minutes of "quiet time"-give her a choice how she wants to spend that time (i.e. reading, playing with dolls or just chattering to herself) but she has to spend it alone in her room without tv. That way, you both get the benefit of a break and she gets the power of choice.

We started putting our daughter to bed about 1/2 hour earlier, but in 15 minute increments each week. I am still amazed at how little she sleeps but when I look at it, she is still getting 9-10 hrs each night.

Good luck-Hope this helps! A. R.

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