When Punishment Just Does Not work...Where Do I Go from Here!?

I too have an 11 year old that likes to test me. I have come to the conclusion that the baby and the toddler stages were easier! She is also not fazed by the taking away of her possesions. I am just hoping that this is a phase. Best wishes to you!!

I would wonder if her friends are influencing her to act this way. I would also suggest spending tons of fun time with her so she will open up to you without you specifically saying, "what's wrong". Go shopping, go to the movies, go out for a girls night out or lunch. Go for lots of walks and just let her know she is loved.

I think it's time you moved from counselling to a psychiatric evaluation. I'm sorry you're dealing with this, but if you haven't seen any improvement I think there may be deeper issues here. Good luck!

First, I want to say that I totally validate your concerns with your dauther. I hope there is a breathrough soon!

My suggestion is to maybe bluntly ask your daughter: what exactly does trust mean to her? Just ask her to simply define the word trust so you know what image she has of this important concept.

Maybe make a "pact" with her that there will be no more game playing, or hidden agendas: there has to be trust in her relationship with her family.

Since kids want to work for rewards, how about the more trustful behavior she gives, the more freedoms she earns?

Also, keep in mind your way of speaking to her. At this age, kids want to start being treated as mini-adults (with you keeping secretly in mind she really is a child)...but this allows for her to feel important.

Maybe carve out time of your day where you exclusively focus and listen to her. No distractions. This will show her you are an attentive listener and open to her.

Ask the right questions without appearing to interrogate them. It is important that they not fear coming to you to discuss what is important to them. It is equally important that they feel that you will take the time to understand what they are trying to communicate.

Do not judge them for their actions or ever say, "I told you so! This helps in having them continue to come to you to discuss topics, and encourages them to do things better the next time.

When helping them with problem solving, discuss the desired outcomes first, and what they need to do to resolve their problem. Then allow them to proactively make their own decisions based upon the facts rather than reacting to their emotions.

Set guidelines instead of making rules for them to follow. They should have input into the guidelines, and then be expected to follow them. They will perceive this as fair and in their best interests.

"Hang out" together as oppose to just spending time together. Remember that there is a difference between motion and productivity, so make your time together interactive. For example, if you go to a movie, then go for an ice cream and discuss the movie. Or play some "one on one" games or sports. Do what best friends do!

And most importantly, is she taking any medications that could in any way cause depression? Has she been to her pediatrician to discuss her moods? For example, the asthma medication Singulair has recently been found to cause depression, mood swings and even worse, suicidal thoughts, even in very young preschool age children.

You may have tried all of the above...but I sincerely hope things get better. Take care.

If this is really out of character for her, I would try to investigate where it's coming from. Does she have a "friend" who instigates this behavior? Did something happen at school? Even if there is a boy in the picture? I worked with this age group in the public school and some really strange things can happen that parents too often don't know about. You might also try a different counselor if it's not helping.

I think you need to meet with her pediatrician or at the very least have a phone conversation with him/her and explain what has been going on.

This is only going to get worse and I'm afraid of what will come next. I have a 16 year old daughter and I know what can happen.

I would also seriously consider switching counselors, she has to connect with someone in order to open up and get to the root of her issues. I know a great lady in Malvern, not sure where you are located though.

Hang in there.

i would say to try therapy..sounds as if something is going on.not sure what be may need someone bias to talk to...my daughter stole things when i just was having a baby ..grew out of it with extra love and time alone..

You need to treat you daughter like she is a gift from God. I am not a shrink but she sounds like she is in desperate need of attention and you need to tell her daily how much she means to you. Stop taking her things away and think about the good times you had with her. Take her away for a few days. Talk to other 'better adjusted' pre teens and find out what makes them tick. I doubt a psychologist knows what is going on in the mind of a young girl these days. Just give her more love. Maybe she is jealous of your grandson? She may not open up right away but she will know you care! Good luck and God bless.

Sounds like she is crying out for attention, even if she gets the wrong kind. That aside, you need the help of a behavior therapist. You may start with a psychiatrist who can evaluate and recommend the proper program. We go to Intercare on Fort Couch in Bethel Park. Church and a good youth group to provide positive influences would be helpful as well.

K.,
I'm sorry for what you and your daughter are going through. I have O. child (he's 5) so I don't know much (yet) about adolescent behavior. But I know with my son, if something is bothering him, and I ask him directly about it he clams up. If I open up a discussion while he is doing an activity or when we are playing together, I'm amazed at how much he will open up and articulate to me. Do you think that would work with your daughter? Just a suggestion. I also agree that maybe she is just not connecting with this counselor and maybe you should switch. Good luck to you.

Sorry I had already posted when I saw that you did the counseling route! I'm very glad you did and you'll get through this I promise!!

Hi there,

I'm not sure where you live, but if you are close to Bethlehem Couseling Associates they are wonderful for kids. It sounds like there is something deeper going on (my 11 just turned 12). We had a lot of similar issues and working through them together with a counselor was wonderful for all of us. In fact, taking away all of her belongings and pool time, etc. may backfire on you. Your daughter sounds so much like mine - I could not imagine 1 reason why she would be so "sad" - she had everything she could want and then some...

I saw that you are a new-ish g-ma too. Perhaps she is feeling a bit left out with a new baby in the family and all of the hoopla that goes with it.

Please consider talking with a professional. I know from experience that going together to work through these issues showed my daughter that I do truly care about her and helped me to also recognize some areas that I could improve as a parent.

Good luck!!

Wow, Mom, my heart goes out to you. As I read your story, I thought, Oh, my gosh, what can I possibly say? You have your hands full, and I felt at a loss to have anything worthwhile to say -- then a wee little alarm went off -- is your daughter jealous of the 2 year old ? Or, perhaps not "jealous" as such, but feeling as if she's not getting her fair share of attention?

Kids at that age don't know why they do what they do. They just do it, and reap the consequences, and she probably feels lost just like you do. She wants something, but she probably doesn't know what it is. Unfortunately neither do you, and it's so hard to want the best for your child and simultaneously see her world deteriorating before you eyes.

So I would recommend that you not ask her if she feels jealous or if she misses being the youngest. I would simply see if I can re-arrange life to have a few hours a week of "me time" with your troubled daughter. Get home an hour or so early from work, while the little one is in day care, and say, "It's a nice day. Come with me. We are going for a walk." (Are there any walking trails or cool places nearby? summer is perfect for it.) I wouldn't give her a choice, just drag her along. Do you need to get a gift or something for somebody? Drag your older child along -- "I need help picking this out. Please come and help me." Don't say, "would you? or can you," no options, a forced choice.

If there are things she enjoys doing, maybe you could pick some of those, and do them WITH her. Pretend she is the 2 yr old for a while, because in our emotional lives, we are all very young still, and we all want our mommies to spend time with us, especially when we are facing having to grow up and we don't know how to do it.

Above all, find times to tell her you love her. Hug her. When she attempts to do something, win or lose, find something she did right, and tell her you were very proud of the way she tackled it and how she stuck to it. Help her to take pride in being who she is, and she will become someone she wants you to be proud of. In spite of all the peer stuff, you are still her number one fan, and the one whose love she most covets, and will for life.

Talking to a therapist can be very very helpful, but the reality is that the person she most needs to be able to talk to is probably you. She just doesn't know how to go about it, because she understands that you are busy working, taking care of the baby, etc.

So, make times to be happy together. To create positive interactions. Does she like to cook ? How about she cooks, and you clean up afterwards ? Does she like photography ? An inexpensive digital camera can give you opportunities to go look for cool things to photograph -- a family outing to the zoo, a trip around town looking at interesting architecture -- I had a friend who did a whole study on "doorways", for a photography class, taking pix of gardens, it would create a whole lot of outings, and time at home for her to work on her pix on the computer. then you have something to ooh and aah about, and she can take pride in it.

Would she like to learn to ride a horse ? My 2nd daughter had to move with us at age 14, and the home we rented had a barn on the property where the owner kept her horse. Kathy never rode that particular horse, but the owner let her go to the barn and groom the horse regularly. Whenever kathy needed time away from Mom and the babies (then ages 2 and 4), she went to the barn, groomed the horse and talked to it all about her life. I could have learned TONS and TONS if I'd had a tape recorder somewhere in the barn. But it helped her to cope with life. And riding became a passion of sorts -- during college she worked in a riding program at a Y camp, and ended up with them paying to send her to be certified to teach, and then she was the riding director.

If you help her to explore areas of interest -- even redecorating her room, and working together on it -- and you do some things that are just the two of you, then you will be able to also do some things with the 2 yr old in tow that won't intrude so much on her feeling special. Also, she will be able to go places on behalf of the 2 yr old and see it through younger eyes, and have fun doing that, too.

I may be full of hogwash. but it sounds as if nothing else is working, and maybe a whole different direction might help. Scheduling it is tough these days, but do your best. When it is all said and done, we each do the best we can as moms with the gifts and talents we have, and we pray that it will be enough. I hope and pray that this is a stage, and things will begin to work out for the better, but even if it is, the time you spend with her, loving her through it, will be helpful to her as she grows, as she becomes and adult and as she looks back and realizes how much you truly have loved her over the years.

Best of luck ! and, Godspeed to you !

Wow, My children by that point would knock off what they are doing, many because they don;t want to lose anything else. Is her dad in the picture?

Also i would take her to the local ploice station if she keeps stealing. I have told my children that the next time that they stole anything that they would be going down to the local station. i know that is sounds mean.

How about taking her to be tested? Most Ped will be able to tell u the best type. She is acting out for what ever reason and u have taken the first step of having her talk to someone. Hopefully they are ones that have worked with children and are trying to help u get to the bottom if it. Best of Luck and please let me know how things are going.

You really have a challenging situation on your hands there. First of all I noted that you said you have been going to counseling for several months. That's a good thing and can be very helpful. However, when you aren't seeing any behavioral changes it may be time to reassess the situation. Has she been medically evaluated? Had a very good thorough physical and workup lately?? If not then I would schedule that as soon as possible noting the behavior that you are seeing. Has she seen a psychologist and had a battery of tests done? Seems you may need a really good eval done to ID the problem so you can address it more effectively.
There can be any number of reasons that this is happening. Soemthing may be going on that you are not aware of. It sounds like you have been very diligent in trying to help your daughter. I did not see your previous posting so I don't know if she has always acted this way or if this behavior has just started in the past year or so. If it has been a recent thing then there probably is something going on that you are unaware of either environmentally or physically. I think the most important thing is to let kids who are having trouble know that you love them and you will always love them no matter what they do. However, there are rules and expectations everyone has to live by and you love her enough to teach her. Really reinforce when she is being good. And don't be so extreme in the punishment end of the deal that YOU can't live up to it. EX: you took away her pool membership. Did you really and is she really not going to the pool the rest of the summer or was that an impact statement and she can go back to the pool in a few weeks? The point is say what you mean and mean what you say. Be consistent. I would write down a plan for behavioral changes so that I could refer to it and know what the dicipline would be for say the 1st offense, 2nd offense and so on. This helps with consistency. Maybe use the pool as reinforcement as opposed to discipline. You can go to the pool after 2 good days at daycare/babysitters. Hope this helped!!

It sounds to me like she wants more of your attention and time. Could she be angry that you are working and not able to spend as much time with her? Does she see other friends with their parents and envy their situation? I gather from the daycare situation that you are working full time? Would it be possible to adjust your schedule so that she spends a few days in daycare and a few with you at the pool? I also agree with the previous poster who suggested that you use the pool as a reward and not revoke the privelege for the whole summer. I also agree with finding a new therapist. Something is going on here and you will eventually figure it out! I remember that I myself was very difficult when I was a pre-teen. Hang in there. Wish I had more ideas for you.

Hi K.,

I would also suggest changing counselors. I'd definitely find one that mainly deals with teens.

Another thing I noticed is that you said there is 12 years between your 2 girls. My daughter and son are that many years apart also and I have noticed that my son (who is 8)has started having an attitude like a teenager much much earlier than normal because of what he has seen in his sister. Could any of this stems from how her sister acted while she was growing up? Just an idea...

L.

She may have trouble talking face to face. I remember reading somewhere about a Mom writing back and forth with her daughter in a notebook/journal. Get a new notebook and write something in it that you would like her to know, ask her to write something back and leave it in her room. You can write back and forth to each other and do not have to even talk about the notebook. Maybe she can write some things down that she can't say to you.
Good Luck

I'm not sure what to tell you. I know that when I was a little older than that I was going down a bad road and it took something awful to change it.

I will tell you this, putting everything that she DOES care about in the garbage is absolutely NOT going to help and WILL make her feel more separated from you and betrayed from you!!! Re-think this one, mom, and get the stuff off the curb! Any therapist who suggested this is WAY off!

Definately don't back down from the daycare and cancelled pool membership. But I think she may need serious help beyond what the counselor can provide. She sounds like she is addicted to the negative attention. Please consider residential treatment. That, coupled with training for the whole family on how to deal with her to help her get better, seems to me to be a good way to go. At least talk to your local and perhaps regional childrens' hospitals which have a mental treatment facility. The problems will not go away. There is nothing wrong with you. Please don't feel bad and don't give up hope.

Did you maybe go from a stay at home mom to a working mom, then all these "issues" your daughter is going through and doing arise? Maybe she misses mom being home all the time and rebelling against it?

Was there any kind of change in her life that has happened over the last year or two that she could be rebelling against?

My baby brother rebells like that too, but he also has ADHD and had been through years of councilling that never worked. They kept blaming it on his ADHD and never really got to a "root" of the problem with him.

These are the only things I can think of that might be the reason she is rebelling the way she is. I know when my parents got a divorce, I rebelled a great deal. Never just went missing or stole things, but did rebel a great deal.

sorry if I wasnt much help.

D. L.

I have an 11 year old son who was a real challenge from when he was about 3 years old. Everything, and I mean everything was a battle. He would be abusive to me. He would call me names, hit me, I would litteraly have to wrestle him to the floor to get dressed for school and drag him by the ear. (I know it sounds harsh but I was at my wits end) He would steal sometimes. It was horrible. I took him to psychologists and psychiartrists, starting at age 4. Finally I gave in and put him on meds for ADHD when he was 10, I really didn't want to medicate my child, but I could not take it anymore. I also showed him more affection-which was an effort. After years of me being treated badly from my son as horrible as it may sound, I was cold to him. I could not stand to be in the same room as him. I resented him. It took the birth of my second son for me to see how I treated him so coldly. I would sit there and cuddle w/ my toddler(who was so lovable and did not argue back about anything) and I would feel guilty that I didn't feel this way anymore for my older son. I think the meds helped somewhat, but I think that it was my behavior change towards him that turned things around for me. My son and I did sessons together w/ a pshchologist to help our relationship. And today he is no longer on meds and he is not as bad as he used to be. I am not saying he is perfect, but my life 2 years ago was unbearable and now things are so much better! Good luck, I feel your pain!

I would gather up all information on her behavior and go to her doctor to rule out any emotional problems or disorders. These things don't just happen out of the blue. There has to be a reason. Either something happened that you're not aware of, she may have a disorder that hasn't been diagnosed, or you may BOTH need to go to counseling so you can learn the skills to handle her.

K. B
mom to 5 including triplets
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HarrisburgPAChat

WPIC has a family based program that works with situation in the home. It may be a resource as things become unmanageable.

Need to find out what has uprooted her world. Time to dig deeper. Be tough -- letting her know that you love her always.
Actions speak clearly.

Please don't take the the wrong way - but has she seen a counselor? There may be something going on that you are unaware of that she is not comfortable discussing that is affecting her behavior. It sounds like a cry for help...........there are so many sick people out there that can influence the mind of an 11 year old and make them think what is happening is ok............but she would be having an internal struggle and lashing out. I am not saying this is what is happening, but make sure it isn't.

Hi K.-
I just wanted to suggest that you not forego counseling for your daughter altogether. It sounded as though you switched from her counselor to a psychiatrist? I'm a counselor and work with children myself. A psychiatrist will evaluate her and administer medication if needed, but will probably just see her once per month and it sounds as though she requires at least weekly therapy sessions. The best is to keep her with the same counselor long-term, because the therapeutic relationship is the most important component. It may take awhile for her to open up and trust her counselor. Also, consistency is important- in staying with the same counselor, in your discipline, etc. Even if your daughter's behavior seems to stay the same, realize that change can be slow!
I wondered also about your lack of mention of dad- is there something around this that might be causing her to act out?
Anyway, it sounds like you are very invested and trying to do the best for your daughter; hang in there!

OK, Mamasource did not show my your update until after my post. Good Luck!

K.,
I'm sorry to hear about all you are going through. My daughter is just a baby but I have some experience with similar though not the same behavior through one of my younger sisters. My mom has confided many 'wits end' feelings and honestly, my suggestion is to find a new counselor. Finding a counselor that will be successful for your daughter is like shopping for shoes. Some don't fit at all, some you can wear but really aren't your first choice, some are a good deal so you buy them but never wear them, some look great but give you blisters, then there's that one perfect pair of shoes that you find, wear out, find and buy again and again and again. You have to find the counselor that is the perfect 'fit' and match for your daughter or else the sessions are pointless. This obviously can't be figured out in the first visit but after a few your daughter will be able to tell you how she feels about the person counseling her. Oh, and by the way, this was explained to my mother by my sisters FIRST counselor who, though great at her job, wasn't the perfect pair of shoes for my sister.

Hi K.,

I feel for you. I am wondering if trying a differnt approach might help: Signing her up for, or finding her jobs and volunteer opportunities that help her feel worthy and useful. Being that she's the younger of the 2 sisters, this might help empower her, and boost her self esteem to feel important outside the home. Pin point what she loves (animals, babies, etc) and try to find her an outlet to experience her desires in that field, she's not too young!

Also, adopitng a postive behavior chart with extrinsic rewards or incentives can be extremely useful in changing wayward behaviors. Reward her, and keep track of the things she does right. At this point, "tough love" will likley only further alienate her from you, and other authority, a downward and snowballing trend especially in the pre-teen years (I am SO glad that you are dealing with this now, before she's a teenager!!!)

Focus on the good, positive, and what she's GOOD at, and I think you might see a change. If not, after giving it a few weeks or a month's time (maybe longer), I would suggest having her assessed by a proffesional pediatric psychiatrist for depresssion, OD, or similar behavioral disorder. Insist that they check her bloodwork for low zinc, and low B vitamins (supplementing with Omega 3, 6, and 9, zinc, and B vitamins can significantly improve mood and behaviors like this in some children who are not able to process it properly from their foods). It would also be a good idea to take away unhealthy foods and drinks in the hopes that she is able to be as physically and mentally healthy as possible right now (soda, white sugars and flours, food dyes, etc.) These foods, among others, like dairy, can often exacerbate symptoms like the one's you are describing in children who are sensitive to specific dietary components.

I know this is a long post, but I just had to chime in - we are dealing with similar issues with our 9 yr old twins, and I know how stressful it is when things are hard like this with your children.

Hang in there, try to stay optimistic! And TALK to her! Run out and get Christiane Northrup's book about Mother and daughter relationships, you might find it to be very helpful and comforting.

Meg

It sounds to me like your daughter is doing everything in her power to get your attention. Have these problems started since your gift from God grandchild was born? If you are a working mom that has left her child in daycare since she was born, she may be having problems with getting enough attention at daycare too. Why did you pack all her worldly belongings and put them out for trash pickup? That just sounds wrong.

Oh boy, my girls are still babies 7, 5 and 4. I was shocked to read your posting. I say switch therapist obviously it isn't working. I teach a class for teaching prosocial skills and one thing I learned if you are trying something and for about a month and a half and it still isn't working you need to switch techniches.

I would look into a prosicial class nearby you. I can give you soem advice if you like, just contact me privatly. I don't mean to push myself on you. Can you spend more time with your daughter, plan an outing for the 2 of you on a regular basis. You are telling her to talk to you I don't know that you are giving her a chance to know she can come to you. Good luck and please do not give up on your daughter. God bless both of you!

K., this is describing my son during late adolescence! He had little regard for common boundaries, the feelings of others, and how his behavior effected others. This was before I found out he has Asperger's Syndrome.

For the past year and a half, since discovering his autism, it has been a difficult yet rewarding time of undoing very bad behavior patterns for him and very bad behavior responses for me.

What I have found is that positive reinforcement works better than confrontation. This is not a reward system of giving them what they want but, in fact, telling them when they do even the slightest thing correctly and appropriately.

For example: When my son refuses to wear a coat when it is clearly too cold outside to go without one, I stand firm and try to appeal to his sensibility. If that doesn't work, I tell him that if he gets too hot outside with the coat on, I will carry the coat for him (I make this bargain knowing that he will not be too hot). When he finally complies, I say, "Thank you for listening to me. I really do appreciate when you listen to me." I am reinforcing the fact that he is listening.

This always seems to surprise him and he connects with it in a positive way. Then when we get out to the bus stop and he is obviously very cold, I say, "Aren't you glad you chose to wear your coat?" And he will say, "Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking before."

So you see, I was firm in that it was in his best interest to wear the coat without making him feel like I was forcing him to wear it.

About the stealing. This was a problem for us too. I found out that in his way of thinking, he was only "borrowing" or "finding" things. I had to find a way to help him understand that he was stealing. I developed a motto of sorts: "If it's not yours and you didn't have permission, then it is stealing." I also use role reversal to show him how the things he is doing are inappropriate because he has little self-awareness of how is behavior effects others.

He used to be very aggressive and defensive. He is a big guy and very strong so it was too dangerous for him to be aggressive as he could actually injure someone very easily. After an incident where, praise God!, no one got hurt, I asked him this: "Do you believe that you are the strongest person in the world?" He answered quite confidently, "Of course!" I then said, "If you are the strongest person in the world, then for you to put your hands on anyone else would not be a fair fight, would it?"

You should've seen his face light up with this revelation! I haven't had a problem with him threatening to hurt someone else since this conversation!

K., it's a matter of learning how to communicate with your daughter. Take the time to find out what works. Punishment never worked for my son either. But figuring out how to get through to him (no matter how exhausting) has been well worth the effort!

You can email me anytime!

Love In Christ Jesus Always,
D.

Hi K.,

Any chance she's jealous or threatened by the 2 year old grandchild? Are you spending time with the granddaughter that would have been spent with her? Is she close to her older sister and feeling like she's not the little one anymore? Does her sister not spend enough time with her. Your little one is still a child and needs her sibling but the older one is an adult with a child of her own and short on time as we all know. That's alot to process. Just reaching here...you probably already considered all this.

I agree with the other Moms to change counselors. Perhaps someone who specializes in children's behavior that will meet with her alone...you said "we" have been going to counseling. I think should be going alone to somewhere she can talk freely and demonstrate what's bugging her through drawing or dolls or something.

Best of luck.

J.

This may not help a lot but she is old enough to hear the statistics and the horror stories about missing and exploited children. Do a little research in your area. Find out exactly how many sex offenders live in your area. You may be surprised. I was very surprised by just how many live around us. WARNING: This may actually frighten you a little more than her. Also, let her know about the many children who have been abducted or murdered for doing something stupid like disappearing for a while. Also, let her know how worried you were and what her actions did to you. Ask her if she was trying to hurt you. Make her think about her actions.

Also, make her punishments a help to you. Instead of just grounding her, give her extra chores. Give her some extra responsibilities around the house. My grandmother raised my cousin after his mother and father passed away. He was very troubled. When he got into trouble, she would make him clean out the kitchen cabinets. It helped with the trouble making (he still got into trouble but it didn't escalate as much as it could have) a little but the bonus was that when he got into trouble she had clean cabinets.

Another thing you can try is a little homework. You could make her do the research. Make her right a paper as to why what she did was wrong and what could have happened to her while she was missing. Make her do the research to back it up with statistics. Maybe is she reads the articles, she'll get a better understanding of why you were upset when she was missing and how much trouble it caused.

As a last resort, you could stage a tragedy for her. Call her best friends mother and tell her what she did and ask if she would help you to teach her a lesson. Then maybe on a day when her best friend is visiting another friend or will be staying at home, you could have her best friend's mom help by calling and telling you her friend is missing. Then you can go on a search for her best friend. Let her do the worrying for a change. Make sure if you do this, you tell her that one of her best friend's neighbors saw a strange van driving around. Also, make sure that her friend's mom calls you to give you updates and such during the time you are looking. Like I said, this would be my last resort if she continues and doesn't get why what she did was wrong.

I know that this won't solve all of your troubles but maybe it will help a little. Good luck.