Agumentative Child..

Hi J.!

Wow, it sounds like you were blessed with a very bright, strong, and spirited little gal...just like both of my kids! This is a lesson I learned with the first one, and really worked hard to remember with the second one...and it is amazing how much I have learned and grown, and how different the experiences have been....and how much 'better' it is now!

Kids around the age of three are beginning to really sense their 'other-ness'(from their parents), and want (and more importantly, need) to test the waters and assert their independence. And because they are really sinking into this 'other-ness', they are also becoming aware that they are not babies anymore, that they are kind of in this kid-limbo...not quite a baby/toddler, not quite a 'big-kid' (for lack of a better word)...somewhere between semi-independent (in the three-year-old sense of the word) and dependent.

It can be a very challenging time for the parent, but even moreso for the child. Not only are they experiencing that 'other-ness' I mentioned, but are still feeling such strong emotions (oftentimes, several at once), without the self-control or large vocabulary to express themselves in a rational, articulate manner. My heart really goes out to both of you right now!

It is obvious you care a great deal about your daughter, and that you want to make this better for both of you....or else you wouldn't be here asking for support. It sounds to me like your dd is wanting her voice to be heard, is wanting to know, even though *you* might want/need to do something (and do you really *need* to do it? Is that true?), that you will listen to what she is saying, be open to other possibilities aside from your own agenda, and be willing to work together and compromise. Perhaps even more importantly, and even more simply, to empathize with and validate what she is feeling, while helping her to find ways to get her needs met, with consideration for the needs of others involved.

When kids do what you describe your dd doing, I believe it is because they are trying to exercise their right as members of the family to express their opinions and desires. When we tell them that what they have to say doesn't matter simply because they are three, and furthermore, by punishing them for that matter, we are communicating with them that they are not valued for who they are, where they are, right at that particular moment.

If it is reasonable for *you* to want to go or not go to the playground, why is it then not reasonable for her to either want to, or not want to go? If it is reasonable for an adult to change his or her mind, why is it not reasonable for a child? Especially a child who is at an age when kids are so prone to change moods because their needs really vary from moment to moment, based on so many *immediate* factors? (Hungry, Agry, Lonely, Tired - also referred to as HALT, overstimulated, etc.)

Imagine the same situation, and when she says "fine, I want to stay home!" you were to kneel down and make eye contact with her, hug her or touch her in a loving way, and tell her that you'd have so much more fun if she wanted to come too? Or that you'd really miss her if she didn't come? Or that you could wait and see, and if she *still* didn't want to go, that you could call Grandma and maybe find something else to do that *everyone* would enjoy doing? That maybe you could call Grandma and see if she wanted to come over for some tea or pie or something?

I wonder what your daughter would do if you just empathized with her, told her you understand how hard it is to wait to do something you really want to do, and that you are sorry she's having such a hard time deciding whether or not she'd like to go?

I've noticed that when I let go of my expectations, and even my plans, and really open up to *all* the possibilities (even the ones that seem impossible or unreasonable), and when I am willing to really listen and show the kids that I value what they think and feel (even when I don't agree or think it's reasonable - and yes, I do this with my 5 year old and my 3 year old), that more often than not, the tension and resistance melts away, and we are able to find connection and common ground. Sometimes we do what the original plan was, sometimes we do something completely different. The point is, each person gets to be a part of the decision making process (as much as they are able to, of course), and the end result is we are doing soemthing together, that we all are enjoying! And, sometimes I find that the kids are able to come up with really creative solutions that I wouldn't have dreamed of!

And I think that's the key...when our kids are yelling, acting out, whatever you want to call it, they are really craving connection. The more we chastize them or punish them, the more reason we give them to resist and rebel...the more fuel we add to the fire of their anger and frustration of not being heard, and the more distance we place between us and them. And that's just it...instead of a family working together towards harmony, *we* become the battle of 'us' and 'them'.

We are all people, and we all want to, need to, and desire to be heard, validated and valued. Regardless of age or gender, this is inherent. The more we punish, the more we turn away, the stronger this need becomes, and the stronger the force with which we make it known that this need is *not* being met.

The other thing I notice, is that when I am willing to help my kids, to work *with* them, rather than 'show 'em who's boss', (I don't consider myself a 'boss' of anyone...I am a woman, daughter, friend/sister, mother, partner, and a member of a family where all members are treated as equals, and worthy of kindness, consideration and respect) the more they are willing to consider the feelings of others, and to help me when I ask for it.

I also notice that when I am willing to let go of the feeling that I need to be *in charge*, when I am open to the kids need and right to say 'no', we are a family living in joy, working together to meet each other's needs, creating strong bonds and kind, loving connection. The more I try to coerce, the more I give the kids something to push up against. The more flexible I am, the more things just flow. The more I honor their thoughts and feelings, and help them to find ways to get their needs/wants met while also being considerate of others, the more I am modelling the kind of behaviour I would *like* to see. I do not say *expect*, because I do not expect the kids to be anyone other than who they are...even when *I* am triggered by what they are doing.

There are always choices, even when they don't seem clear or easy to find. *Everything* we do is a choice. There is a quote that comes to mind...I don't remember the author, that goes "would you rather be right, or would you rather be kind?" I know that I would rather be kind. I don't always live up to the ideal, but that is the thought I keep active in my mind when I am triggered by resistance and feel impatient, angry, frustrated, hurt, etc. My children do not have power over me...they cannot *make* me feel or react...That is my choice. I don't always see that in the heat of the moment, but hindsight is 20/20 as they say.

Again, this is my own opinion, based upon my own process, my own experiences, my own journeys. I imagine myself a tree...a very big tree with many branches - offering support, protection, comfort, connection, experience, help, etc.; a large, sturdy trunk, filled with the ability to nourish and nurture, give and receive; and wide, deep roots, reaching down into the depths of unconditional love. My children are the weather. Sometimes they are bright, sunny days, other times they are blinding snowstorms. Sometimes they are quiet and still, other times they are cold, hard wind. The point is, I try to remain firmly rooted in love, yet able to bend and sway and shift *with* the weather. When I push up against it, one of my branches gets broken...and I have less to give.

I wish you joy, connection and harmony!

p.s. This 'indecisiveness' could also just be a phase! Hang in there!

Erica's answer is right on. I think it's normal for kids this age to say that they don't want to do something after having said that they do. And when you argue with them the two of you get stuck in this pattern.

Part of the reason that she might be making the demanding statements more frequently than perhaps the average child would is because she gets a reaction from you. Instead of arguing you could just ignore her. Or you could say something like "I heard you say you don't want to go to the park." And let it drop. If you say, "but we're going anyway" you have started the argument.

If what she now doesn't want to do involves only her then don't do it. For example when she says she doesn't want any dinner then don't give her any dinner. When she changes her mind after the rest of you have started dinner remind her that she said that she didn't want any dinner and that you are now eating. You could tell her you will get her some dinner after you are through eating.

What is important is for you to recognize that you are the one in charge. And a part of that recognition on your part is to not respond to her unreasonable demands. Another part of it is to teach her appropriate ways to express what she wants and to help her realize that although she has changed her mind you are still going to do what you deem is best for everyone. re: going to the park involves everyone and so when it's time to go to the park you all go. There is not a choice here. Over time when you don't argue and do assume that she will be going she will learn that arguing with you doesn't work. It will take time and practice for both of you to break this cycle.

In other cases, such as eating dinner, there is a choice. It has to be a choice because you cannot force a child to eat. Part of what she is learning is how much control she does have. You don't want eating or not eating to be a battle because that can be the start of eating issues. You can require her to sit at the table even tho she isn't eating. Or you can have her go somewhere else while you eat. Be creative in finding natural consequences while remembering that the goal is to help her learn that sometimes she has choices and other times she doesn't. And that her choice has consequences. Consequences, meaning that every choice has a result.

I don't know if this applies to you but I began parenting with the idea that if I included my child in decisions and responded to her whenever she made demands that she would learn to be co-operative. This may be true for older children once they've learned what co-operation is. During the early years we have to teach co- operation and respect. Not arguing and insisting on respect are just two parts of the teaching. Giving choices when appropriate is also part of co-operation. When a preschooler has choices they are less apt to be unco-operative when there is not choice. Notice I said less appt. The nature of a preschooler is to test things. They are learning about their world and how to fit in.

This lesson was a difficult one for me to learn. I thought that I was teaching my daughter to co-operate when I was telling her why she had to do certain things. I had vowed to never say "because I told you to." I learned that there are many times that " because I told you to" is the right answer. I just didn't use those words. And I am still finding different ways of saying just that so that we don't have an argument. I am the boss. I hated that word, boss, too. Whatever the parent allows the child to do is the parents choice. I don't have to argue to prove it. Arguing just teaches the child how to argue and results in, among other things, insecurity. But that is another topic.

I empathize with you. Parenting is the most difficult job in the world. I worked for years as a boss in a professional world. Knowing how to be the one in authority there was easier than in parenting.

Later: After reading Heather's response I want to say that disciplining with words and logical consequences in a manner that can be understood by the child is not trickery. Trickery is being deceitful. It's doing one thing while thinking or feeling another. Making it easy for a child to obey is not trickery. It's a logical way to discipline.

I don't argue with children, it is pointless. You are the boss and what you say goes no matter what they want. I wouldn't allow her to yell at you, that is very disrespectful. You are her first authority figure and she needs to respect you that way she will respect her teachers and so forth.

I've been there!
My now 10 year old was born 20 months after my oldest and then 14 months before my youngest son and WOW! is he a strong personality! I decided at one point that I, not him, would choose my battles, and I told him such. I told him when he behavior was unacceptable and he had consequences if he continued to act that way. This was all before he was 4. His idea of throwing a fit (when he was 1) was to grab the carpet and bang his head on it. Now imagine this: he has a bleeding disorder so his forehead was COVERED in bruises... the looks I got in the grocery store! When I talked to his doctor about it, she said to ignore the behavior and it would stop. This was very, very hard. When did it stop? When he grabbed the carpet but ended up banging his head on the kitchen (linoleum) floor. He never did it again. You got to love natural consequences!
I am not against spanking, although I think that not all children respond well to them. One of mine does, my 10 year old never did. I attended a parenting seminar (and I am a child development specialist) on Love and Logic and it completely changed the way I thought of active parenting. It's philosophy is "Helping adults to raise responsible kids". A lot of school teachers attend these seminars, so you get back up and consistency when your children start school. It teaches Natural Consequences to actions. I would highly encourage you to go to the library and check out one of the books: Parenting with Love and Logic by Foster W. Cline, M.D., and Jim Fay.
The website for love and logic is: http://www.loveandlogic.com/
I really encourage you to check it out. It's very important to find what works for you and your family.

Hey, it's me again. I just read this post, and thought I'd reply a bit more.
Your daughter Eliza is getting away with arguing with you and yelling at you. You without realizing it are allowing her "training her" to continue to yell at you and get away with it. It is not okay for a child of any age to talk to an adult like that, 3 or 42. You are allowing her to continue this by not really "doing" anything other than trying to talk her out of it by tricking her. That isn't the issue. The issue is she is trying to be in control of you and feel powerful by yelling and arguing with you. This is talked about over and over in the Bible. You are to teach your children to respect you,and everyone else as you do the Lord. You wouldn't allow her to yell at God that way would you? But you are allowing her to yell at you and whoever else she gets mad at.
As I wrote in my secret response to you, this is a big problem. She needs to be spanked every single time she talks to you like that, no warnings or second chances. This is Biblical, very much so. You have to break her spirit to disobey and act like this, and once she's submitted her will to you, you will both be happy. She'll stop trying to be the boss and respect you for stepping up and being the Mommy. Just like we are to submit our will to God, you must train your child to submit her will to you so she will understand how to "die to self daily" as the Bible teaches and submit herself to God.
Don't beat yourself up about this. Many many parents do exactly what you've been doing, as this is the teaching of thid generation. But it isn't working. Kids are more out of control than ever before. Just look around. Kids everywhere are doing this exact thing unless the parents are taught how to train them other wise. You shuoldn't have to fight against your children their whole lives, you should expect complete obedience from them, and give them lots of love. Then you will eliminate the fighting completely and just continue teaching and growing in loving and obeying your authority.
I hope this helps. Godbless,
H.~

J.,

I am going through a similar situation with my 3 year old son. In so many ways I was thinking you were describing him, except that he has been diagnosed with a speech disorder. I had often wondered if it was because of his speech but, it’s nice (for lack of a better word) that I am not the only one with a 3 yr old that is challenging.
My son’s moods chance like the weather and what will work one moment doesn’t necessarily work the next. He tends to behave better with men. Example: I say something again and again and it sets off a battle of wills. Now his father or any adult male says the same thing and he’s fine with following their instructions.
Man, is it ever frustrating.

Have you tried not telling her what you are doing until it’s time to go? (Can work sometimes) Or one thing I have done is getting them involved in the process when possible (this is not for when you are in a hurry). Try having them help with what ever needs to be done before you can go or eat? For dinner I let them get involved and that way they will know when dinner is ready. Taste testers, letting them sprinkle the spices in the food or time keeper are a few jobs my son likes. Pulse it gives them a chore/ role they can be proud of.
You can also let everyone know that she helped make the meal!

From one super mom to another, hang in there. Know that your job some times goes unnoticed but, keep trying and that you doing great!

God bless,

D.

My best advice is not let her talk to you like that. If she yells and argues tell her, "that is no way to talk to me. Don't yell say please. Or no we're not going to do this we're going to do this....etc." and make her go to her room for a time out. You don't have to keep replying to her statements. Your word is final not hers. Never give or do anything for a child if they wine or argue. Only do and give if she asks politely in the correct manner and always stay true to your promises. I hope that helped.

Betsy

Hi, J.. I have the same problem with my 3 yr son. I haven't really figured it out yet, myself. I just tell him what we are doing and do it. If he has a problem with it, I just ignore it.If we are leaving and he doesn't want to I just start to get ready and head to the door and say "Goodbye". He finally realizes that I leaving and get his booty in gear. He fustrates me but I just try to be patience with him and don't really try talking to him about the situation. It seems to make it worse. Patiences and understanding. Sorry, if this doesn't help much.
S.

Though I don't really have much advice for you, I go through the same thing with my daughter. She just turned 4 in Feb. I read your post and kind of chuckled. This happens to me on a daily basis. For the most part, I do the same thing as you and say "Ok, then I guess we will go have fun without you." Then she will usually give in and get ready to go. Let me give you an example I had yesterday. I asked the kids if they wanted to go play outside. They said yes, and I told them if they wanted to play outside they needed to clean up their toys first. In about a half of a second Kaylee replied "I don't wanna go outside, I wanna stay inside." All because she didn't want to clean up her toys. Kids can be very manipulative. You are the boss, and don't let her get away with it. If she needs time out, etc, don't hesitate. I am the main disciplinarian in my house (daddy works out of town) and when asked "Are you daddy's girl?" she says "No, I'm mommy's girl". I didn't realize my kids still liked me after they spent part of the day on time out!! LOL. You would think kids would hate you for disciplining them, but it is good for them. Make sure you nip this in the butt before it becomes a huge issue. Maybe you can ask her why she is so angry...? Sorry I'm not much help. But you are not alone!!

K. :)

sounds pretty typical of the age....but frustrating all the same....I like a parenting model called Love and Logic...it talks about giving choices that you (as the parent find acceptable)and allowing natural consequences to do the teaching as much as possible...since I don't know the whole story, this is a rough idea...well you can choose to go to the park with us and play or you can come and wait in the car. Allowing her to have th choice to stay home is not realistic and sets up for an argument because at 3 y.o. you can't really allow her to stay at home. If she wants dinner and then says no (and you ok with this choice) you can say well that is ok, you can eat or not eat, but you have to sit at the table. If she chooses not to eat then don't let her eat later...one meal won't hurt. The technique offers distraction while forces her to make a choice that you are ok with....you win and she gets to exercise her right as an individual....good luck....

Hi J.,
we have a 5 year old that is very prone to arguing and he's extremely logical to boot! I think what your little one is doing is flexing her power to change her mind and that's ok but only sometimes and with some things. It's up to you to decide when to let her flex that power, you are the parent. When you give her the 'option' to make a choice then she has the power but I don't think it's healthy to let her have the power all the time, does the real adult world give us the power all the time? If you've announced that you're going to the park then that's the end of that in my opinion, she doesn't get an option. She goes with you, no arguing should be allowed. We resorted to either time outs which work sometimes and at other times we take toys or movies/tv away for a certain period of time. What I tell my son when he wants something other than what we've stated is going to happen is "you don't have the option to change your mind right now". Your little girl may not 'get' that message right now but I would repeat it over and over and my guess is that she's pretty bright and over time she'll get it. Just make sure that you do what you say you're going to do, i.e. time outs and such, and that you stand by your word and that your husband is on the same page and that you back each other up. She'll fall in line over time (I hope). Good Luck.
T.