Discipline of a 4 Year Old... Im Going Crazy Here

It sounds like they need MORE outside time:) You shouldn't take away exercise and fresh air as a punishment, in my opinion.

I think, it is hard for a young child, to adjust to everything... and that MIL AND FIL is there and that you/Hubby are care-takers.
Kids this young, do not know how to automatically 'cope.'
Being a care-giver, for an ill parent, is hard... for an adult.
For a child, harder.
The dynamics of the 'family' and household changed.

I was a caregiver for my ill Dad, before he died. It is very hard... to be a caregiver... and stressful, for an adult.
Mix in a child into that mix, and well, its even harder.
The roles of the child's parents changes, the routines of the home, the priorities, everything.

Kids do not know how to 'be' with illness... and that it is their Grandparents.

all the best,
Susan

You must be feeling extremely stressed about becoming the primary caregiver for your in-laws as well as your children. Your children are probably feeling your stress and are also getting less of your positive time and attention.

In response your daughter is doing what she can to get some of your attention in any way she can even if it is negative attention. You are probably unintentionally reinforcing this behavior by giving her attention mostly only when she misbehaves.

To change her behavior, there are several things you can try that may gradually make things better.

1. Try to set aside some Mom and Me time every day to spend time doing something with her that she enjoys when you can focus on her and give her some positive attention. It can be the same thing every day like a walk together around the block or a reading time or just a time where you do different things like one day baking cookies together another day coloring or doing a craft project.

2. Don't take away outdoor time as a "punishment". This is like shooting yourself in the foot. She needs more activity and exercise to help relieve stress and tire her out so she will be more calm. Consider signing her up for swim lessons or whatever sports may be available for a child her age. Take her outside to run or play for at least an hour or two every day.

3. Try to create situations for her to succeed rather than setting her up for failure. Although it will require more planning on your part, try to make sure that she has something to do before you get into the shower or some other situation where she is most likely to get into mischief. Maybe your can get Grandma or Grandpa's help by letting them know in advance that you would like them to play a board or card game with her while you are in the shower and tell them that you will be asking your daughter to will help you by keeping Grandma or Grandpa company while you are in the shower. Be sure to praise your daughter if she has behaved and done as she was asked when you get done with your shower.

4. Focus on natural "consequences" for behavior you want to discourage instead of "punishment". Ditch the spanking - it is counterproductive and leads to disrespect. Although it is difficult, if she yells and screams, tell her calmly that you can't hear or respond to her unless she uses her "indoor voice" and then ignore her tantrums. On the other hand, don't forget to praise her or comment when she behaves appropriately several times per day. For example "Since you asked so nicely, yes I'd be happy to read a story with you". or "I really appreciate it when you are so polite and ask so nicely"

5. Try to find your daughter some friends to have some play dates with. This will help give you a break and is also something you can take away to use as a consequence for misbehavior.

5. It is appropriate that your inlaws do NOT try to discipline your kids. They are new to the household and you don't want your kids to resent them or the bad behavior around their medical equipment to increase. I do think it would be appropriate for them to do what they can to give the kids some attention - playing cards or board games, doing craft projects with them, etc.

6. Try to schedule a weekly fun activity with your children away from home and the grandparents. A trip to the beach, the zoo, a hike in the woods, a pool. Try to create some positive experiences that your daughter can look forward to every week and don't threaten to cancel them as a "punishment", but instead try to use it as a positive incentive during the week. For example: "Remember if you help me this week and leave other people's things alone like we've asked you to do, we will go to the zoo on Sunday"

You gave a lot of info, but keep in mind that your story is just a small snapshot of your lives and what you have tried so far. My answer may not be accurate for your situation depending on any missing info...but based on the little I've heard, it sounds like consistancy is what is missing. I have an almost 4 year old and he was going for the world record in tantrums as far as volume, duration, and number of them per day. The breaking point finally came a couple of weeks ago when he had an "ah ha" moment where he finally got it that he wasn't going to get what he wanted by having a meltdown. For a long time, we'd been telling him he can't get what he wants by crying/whining/having a meltdown. However, once he'd start to get upset, we'd tell him we couldn't understand him and he had to talk like a big boy. So he would stop crying/whining and he'd talk like a big boy and ask nicely and he'd end up getting what he wanted. THAT WAS THE WRONG THING FOR US TO DO!!!! We realized that we were basically teaching him that when we said no to him, just have a meltdown, wait until we told him to talk like a big boy, then he'd ask nicely, and he'd get what he wanted that we originally had said no to!!! Eek! What were we thinking?!? The "ah ha" moment came at a VERY embarassing scene at the orthodontists office. We were there for my oldest's appoinment. My preschooler had been waiting for his turn with the video games. We walked away from the game room so I could speak with the orthodontist, but he was being impatient there and climbing everywhere, so my oldest asked if he could be helpful and take him back to the video game room where he never did get his turn to (pretend to) play the games. Two minutes later, I hear SCREAMING!! The office ladies had shut down the video games for the night! He freaked out!! Then, to add salt to the wound, my daughter tries to smooth things over by saying maybe we could go and get some ice cream. I said it was too close to dinner time and we were NOT going for ice cream, so he switches gears on his video game meltdown and screams that he wants ice cream!! I carried him out of the office and just sat on the sidewalk because he was flailing too much to safely get his seatbelt on... What felt like an eternity later, he finally calmed enough to get him into his carseat, but when I let him know we were going HOME and not for ice cream, the tantrum began again. I expalined that he would NOT be getting any ice cream because of the way he was behaving, and to illustrate I meant business, I drove through Chick fil A and got ice cream for my other 2 kids!! We talked about it later and for days afterwards--- about how he does NOT get what he wants by screaming, and about how he needs to NOT have a meltdown just because someone tells him no. Ever since then, when he starts to freak out and I see a meltdown coming, I catch him immediately and remind him that he will NOT get what he wants by screaming, and that if he has already been told NO that screaming is NOT going to change it, AND even asking nicely is not going to change it because sometimes the answer is just no, no matter what.

You said she helps you bag up her toys, but how long before she gets them back??? I am assuming you are not getting rid of them for good, and if my assumption is correct, why not giggle and help bag them up when she knows they will be returned soon anyway??? I'll never understand the bagging up the toys thing. Didn't you spend money on them?? Why would you throw them/give them away? And if your intention is not to "really" throw them away and you are just doing it as a fake out threat, what is that teaching her when she knows she'll be getting them back?? And the going outside thing... if she misbehaves, do you take your younger child out and make her stay in to show her you mean what you say, or does everyone have to stay in because of her misbehavior (if that's the case, she is controlling the family and getting tons of negative attention). Does she eventually get to go outside that day anyway??

I don't have a magic wand with an easy answer for you, but as all parents do (myself included!!!) you need to step back and hold a mirror up to your life and see where you are being inconsistant. Pick something and stick to it. It won't work the first time because she will test you. You have to do the same thing every time. If your in-laws don't follow through with your rules when you aren't around, that's their problem. Your daughter needs to learn that you will follow through with what you say. Say what you mean and mean what you say (I know it's hard and we ALL need to work on that, but make it your mantra and try it!!)

You've received some good advice so far. Your daughter's behavior might be totally "normal" considering the changes and added pressure in your household of having your ill in-laws living with you. That almost certainly makes new demands on your daughter's ability to defer her own needs and wishes, and she may have a love/hate relationship with the grandparents that take some of your precious time away from her.

She's a 4yo child, still just as subject to babyish lapses as brave attempts to live up to expectations. Some days she may simply be feeling more disappointed or stressed than others – the same kinds of ups and downs adults have, actually.

Until you have reason to believe otherwise, don't assume she'll behave poorly at school. Children often shine for other adults, possibly because they don't already have a long record of failures and punishments, and all the baggage that goes with those.

Try to think of "discipline" in positive terms; a way to help your daughter be her best, rather than as punishment when she's not. Children almost always would prefer to be good. They almost always want their parents to love and appreciate them. The negative behavior generally begins when they don't perceive they are getting enough positive feedback or attention. This dynamic may well be magnified by your in-laws absorbing more of your time since they moved in.

PLEASE do a huge favor for all concerned, and read a terrific book by Faber and Mazlish, How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk. Learn remarkably sensible techniques to help your daughter communicate her feelings and needs, and participate in finding solutions. Learn how you can establish boundaries in a firm and authentic way that usually sidesteps any need for punishment.

This approach is so obvious and effective, once we've tried it, that we may wonder why we ever thought children are a special category of persons in need of lectures, shaming, deprivation, threats or other punitive treatment.

Your in-laws may enjoy this easy-to-read book and find it useful, too, since they spend time alone with your daughter. I use this approach with my 4.5yo grandson, and it really helps him when he's having a not-so-happy time.

And I agree that your daughter will probably do better if you don't punish her by removing her healthy outdoor play time. More vigorous play, fresh air and sunshine will probably help her sleep better.

I don't have advice for you, I just want you to know that I think you are a good, repsonsible parent and it sounds like you're doing everything right. It isn't workng, though, so it is time to find a new way. I wish I knew a direction to point you in.

Have you tried taking her off of all foods with color dyes in them? You know, the FD&C red number 40, etc. Some children have a neurological reaction to that junk which causes them to have serious behavior problems (most of them end up on ADHD drugs, though diet can cure it fast as lightning.) Maybe start tracking all the things she eats, what time she goes to sleep, and her behavior. You will start to notice trends and patterns if there is a physiological explanation for her behavior.

Good luck to you.

First, let me say that it sounds like your hands are very, very full. I can't imagine what life would be like with my in-laws living in-house, but chances are I might be misbehaving too!

Your endnote mentioned that your in-laws don't punish your children. I don't know if it's for philosophical reasons or due to the fact that punitive action can often up the ante, and they may just need the kids to calm down. Sometimes people choose to be passive in the hopes of not antagonizing a situation; they may also be backing off in deference to you being the parent and at home. And your MIL may be feeling a little helpless if she is left with a child who literally has her life in her hands.

You don't say what's going on in regard to the rest of your home life, but I'm wondering if setting a daily routine would help (That is, if you don't have one.). This would include those times away--outside the house--that it sounds like your daughter truly needs. I believe that children have an intrinsic need to be out of doors, and I would caution against making this be the punishment, especially as it sounds like it's not an effective one.

What I would do, however, is look into how much time your four year old is getting with you, along the lines of your being engaged in her interests/playing games/some real relationship time. These can be small, bite sized pieces throughout the day, and also through using positive attention for neutral behaviors. (Anyone can message me if they want more info on this very effective technique). The reason I am mentioning this is that it sounds like real attention-getting behavior that she's displaying. Children begin to really "reason" with us around age 6, and so she might not be able to intellectually or emotionally understand the importance of caring for her elders with respect (ie-staying out of the hose); and she might not even understand the enormous changes to her daily life with your in-laws now being present. It can be a big change, and big changes are often when we most see regression-- not usually during the novelty of the change, but relatively soon after. (As a preschool teacher I can attest to this.)

If it were me, I'd be clear with the children that the hose is off-limits, period. I'd also then give them lengths of jump rope or something else to play with in lieu of the hose. I'd also suggest showering before your husband goes to work, so that you are present all day, if you can.

Two more things: one--these books "How to Talk so Kids will listen--and how to listen so kids will talk" (by Faber and Mazish) and The Science of Parenting, which has great information on tantrums and acting out behaviors. "Taking Charge" by Joanne Nordling also has great information, including the positive attention for neutral behaviors practice I mentioned earlier.

And two: If you are looking at taking her to a doctor, please consider that if you paint a picture of an out-of-control child, she might be placed on medication because that is how a medical doctor views things--medically. I might ask more about a family counselor, because this may be a helpful option. I'm not saying that your family is troubled and needs counseling, however, it's definitely a positive step that can allow your children to process the huge change of having invalid grandparents in their space and can give you and your husband some great tools for changing negative behaviors. And it sounds like you are very frustrated and at your wits end, so it couldn't hurt.

Oh, and sorry so long, but check out the Positive Discipline website. You sound like a very caring parent and partner to your husband, and you are obviously concerned about the well-being of your in-laws. I wish you all the best.

Four is the "adolescence of childhood", especially for girls. It is normal. It is awful! And it WILL pass--usually before you run screaming for the hills yourself. But it's exactly the emotional strategies and responses she will generally use when she is 14 too, so get ready. I went through three girls and it's proven true for all of them, though they each have very different personalities and had very different four year old stages. Think hard about how you might handle this same thing when she's 14 and what kind of relationship it will take between you to be able to manage disputes when you cannot simply put her over your knee.

Think about it from the kid's perspective developmentally...she is now old enough and developed enough to understand the basic rules, she is old enough to assert her independence in a very real way, AND she is still very, very young emotionally. She is just beginning to move into the ability to understand social interaction, and that is what her brain is functionally working on figuring out right now. Anything changes? She's trying to find out where the limits are and what to do about them and how she has any power at all. She realizes that basically she has NO power in the decision making, and the only way she CAN assert power in certain situations is to scream, throw things, and refuse to comply. It's a test--both internal and external. You break down--even if you think you're "punishing" her--and she wins and you lose. Spanking doesn't help. It just increases the power struggle, though you may force compliance in the moment you will never gain cooperation this way. And though you really do want to teach empathy for others' feelings and needs, while she can SAY she doesn't want grandma to stop breathing, she is not yet at a developmental stage where she has ANY capacity to have understanding of what that would be like, or to put that person's needs before her own impulsive desires.

What's the answer? First, you have to get your head--and heart--around what her actual capabilities are, rather than what you want her to do. Just like with a pet dog or cat, you then have to design the system, the environment, and the possible ways she can interact with them, accordingly. She's not TRYING to be bad...she's exploring her world. It's not her fault it isn't working in this case. You don't want to set up power struggles, you want to set up lessons in cooperative decision making and meeting everyone's needs. But you can't force her to behave based on your understanding of the situation, you have to work with HER abilities and phase of development.

The logical connection--if you do this then we won't go outside or to the park, etc--is what happens in the NEXT stage of development. If you survive till five, it will ALL get easier if you haven't set up a compliance by physical force situation now.

So, how would you handle a situation where someone's personal safety--grandma and her need for the oxygen--is concerned? How about a totally different approach. GIVE her some oxygen hose that is hers. Mark it very, very well--maybe colored electrical tape all over it to decorate it. Ask her what she likes about it. Ask her why it's fun to play with. Offer her that exact thing she wants without it being someone else's. And then, rather than stressing the part about not being able to breathe--which a 4 year old simply cannot be expected to remember and understand--and spanking her when she gets it wrong, stress instead that while we do share many things, some things belong to her, some things belong to grandma, some things belong to mommy, etc. She can absolutely understand that! AND what it feels like to have things that belong to her taken or played with when she doesn't want them to be.

If she only plays with her own hose, then she gets to keep it and her other things, too. If she touches grandma's things without permission, she loses her hose, plus one other thing she treasures for awhile. If she throws toys, you calmly take them one by one and say "I guess you don't want this one for awhile. I'll just put it up until you're ready for it back" And you put it up in a closet she can't get to. AND you give it back a little bit after she's calmed down--reliably. Don't "steal" and don't make it "punishment"--make it logical. If she screams, calmly tell her you love her and you'll wait until she can talk to you in an inside voice, and you'll listen--Tell her that you don't want to get angry with her and the screaming makes you feel that way, so you need a "time out" and you are going to go in a different place until she calms down. Then do. Then come back as SOON as she calms down and let her tell you all about how it felt--as long as she talks in a lowered volume.

It won't work instantly. But things will change pretty quickly. Give it a week or so. Meanwhile, make sure grandma has extra hose somewhere your daughter cannot get it.

Yikes, I have a nearly four year old and know the battles too well. I was tearing my hair out with frustration and feeling like I was constantly yelling or threatening this punishment or that, and truly hating the way I was parenting. Then when I was talking with another Mom, a light went off and I really realized how inconsistent I was being.

So about a month ago we started "The Fuzzy Ball Program" and it sounds so simple and silly but it has truly worked like a miracle (kind of like the marble thing someone else mentioned on here). I didn't have any super high expectations, but nonetheless I hyped it up when I told my daughter all about it, so she was super excited and was proudly explaining all about it to other people! I bought some multi-colored craft store type fuzzy puff balls and put them in a clear jar on the counter, and when she is acting naughty she gets one (or some, depending on the seriousness of the issue) taken away. When she's acting up, instead of yelling and getting mad, mad, and madder, I take a deep breath and simply hold the jar up for her to see as I remove some balls...no words necessary. I just put the lost ones in a separate container in a nearby cupboard. On the flip side, whenever she does something extra nice or helps me out, etc, I give her some balls back. At the end of the day/week/whatever you choose, *if* the jar is filled to the top, we give a little reward. She actually goes out of her way to do special things for her baby brother which is really cute (and even if her motivation is to "earn" fuzzy balls, she still really does notice how her actions make her brother happy).

I think it works well because it is something visual which is seen throughout the day as a silent reminder for good behavior. Also it can easily be used by different adults/caregivers which really helps with the whole consistency thing. I've gone as far as to put some extra fuzzy balls in my purse in a ziploc baggie if I need the visual power of the balls in a store or somewhere. People do give me funny looks when I give my daughter the warning reminder "Fuzzy balls"--lol! However, I swear by the end of the second day of "The Fuzzy Ball Program" I had doubled my previous levels of sanity :). Best of luck with this crazy age!!

Maybe you should stop spanking them! Have you any idea how hard it is for children to have sickly grandparents living with them? It takes endless attention away from the children. They are not 10 years old even they are small and two needy adults are sucking up all the extra time their mother used to spend with them.
WHERE ARE YOUR EYES? What extras are you doing for your children. It's punishment punishment punishment. Your husband's parents are they taking a grandparent role with the children? Can they read to the children, play with them listen to them. Do they tell them stories of their childhoods or connect them to the history of your family?
I assume you are an older mother because young ones seldom get caught in this bind nowadays with elderly relatives and small children.

First of all, keep in mind that this is very normal 4 year old behavior. It's her job to challenge you and test her boundaries, just as it's your job to set rules and teach proper behavior. I would choose an appropriate consequence and use it consistantly. Be very matter of fact, and try not to make a big deal about it. It probably won't work immediately, but she'll get the message.

Hi. you have a handfull. I hated the 3's and 4's worse than the 2's. Instead of focussing so much on the negative, look for the positives. When she behaves, leaves the hose alone, aknowledge it, and reward it. There is a marble system where you take marbles and a couple jars or whatever works, and for each time per say she ignores the hose, or doesn't yell, she gets a marble. Each time she touches the hose, she looses a marble. After getting so many marbles she gets a reward. It won't be instant in her understanding of the marbles, she won't get it at first. But you need to be consistant, and actually do it for a month before saying it isn't working. I used and still use money with my son. He gets so much money for good behavior. At first it earned a trip to the dollar store. Make some extra time with your daughter, her dad should too. Find something that her grandparents can do with her that will give her good memories of them.

I guess the first thing that comes to mind is to not have your in-laws watch them at all. If you need to take a shower than do it when Daddy is home or take the girls into the shower with you. Your in-laws are disabled and unable to fully care for the girls alone and it puts the in-laws at risk when they are left alone with them. Your children are too young to realize the safety issues or to be trusted to act appropriately in an emergency situation. You will save a lot of grieve in the long run. Pick you battles you know.

When your 4 year old starts to throw a tantrum, I would quietly carry her to her room and close the door and sit outside the door keeping it closed and waiting her to calm down. Then tell her why she was put there, ask her to say she's sorry to grandma or you or whoever then hug her and let
her out and move on. Praise her when she being gentle and polite!

First of all, her world has been rocked.
Second - that is no excuse for bad behavior.

You need to be consistent.
You need to set rules and consequences.
Do not send her to her room, put her in a hard kitchen chair and give her a time out with a timer.
If she talks, the timer starts over.
If she gets up, the timer starts over.

Write up a set of rules - let her help.
Put them on the wall where everyone can see them.

As for her bedtime schedule, pick a reasonable time - 7pm.
Put her in her bed at 7 - tell her the clock says it's bed time.
If she gets up, bring her back. Do NOT talk to her, kiss her, rub her back. This is no nonsense time.
Just keep bringing her back.
If she screams, let her - just ignore her -- she is 4.
Give her a flashlight and a book if you want, but do not engage her after you put her in her bed.

You are the parent. You need to be in charge -- right now, she's running your house. She doesn't respect you. You've got to nip it now or you'll have a huge monster to deal with when she's a teen.

I know some of what I say stings.
YMMV
LBC

Take everything out of her bedroom except her mattress, pillow, and blanket. I'm serious. Return items when she shows that she can be calm and have appropriate behavior. If she starts in again, remove things again. The weather is warm enough that she does not need a blanket if she has warm jammies on. Make her choose between blanket or pillow. And if she ends up sleeping on the floor, so be it.

Stay calm. This is the most important thing you can do. Get your husband in on the pact and tell him staying calm is the most important thing you can do. If you must scream, do it later, outside, where she won't hear you. Don't forget to shut the windows and doors.

A good stiff drink later will help too:}

I had a friend who showed me something useful. She got a large clear plastic container, she would put the toys her boys lost in it & with a top that seals until they earned them back. She would put it on the floor an use it like a coffee table so the kids could see what they where missing because of there bad behavior or if they just wouldn't puck up after themselves. She made sure it was not easy to earn back either. Kids under 6 years of age don't need any tv or electronics anyway just cut them out altogether, they will be less cranky. Validate their feelings, say " I know you just want to have fun & play with the hose the problem is grandma can get hurt when you do that. To have real fun everyone must be safe." Parenting is being consistent even when you are worn out & doing the right thing & not being lazy. It's the toughest job you'll ever love. Your daughter might like certain shoes or clothes too. Keep her on lock down until her behavior changes however you might find that if you work at wearing hear out each day she is better behaved & will go to sleep earlier without problems. If you work at zapping her energy, she won't have any left to defy you with. A website that helped me was Loveandlogic.com. By the way the kids will keep on testing you only in different ways as they get older, my daughter is 8 & a half. Right now for me it's "Why do I have to do everything?" because as you get older you have more responsibilities & she must pick up after herself.