Convince Me That Illegal Immigration Is Okay

I agree but the president dosn't want you to have to prove it cause he wont prove it himself!!!!!!! There are some many people that are here illegaly that it makes it hard for the ones that are here legaly. And so many of them can get govenment aid but those of us who were born here can't get help we need because most is going to them.

But my biggest thing is I know there are illigals that get goverment assistance! Some of them will get socials illigaly and there are many in my area that have done that. My husband worked with a guy that got cought working with one. If they are here legaly fine but out government still should not give them assistance if they are not citizens!!!!!!!!

I agree completely. The ones that don't are the people elected b/c they are counting on their votes. Sad but I think that is part of it. If you are going to live here, do it legally. If we were in their country they would expect/demand the same thing.

I live in Texas...
Thats all I can really say...
I dont want to be removed from this site completely, so I will not say how I really feel. BUT just know. this is a sore subject....

http://projects.latimes.com/mexico-drug-war/#/its-a-war

And to Mommy B..see above link..

This is why we need to make being hear an easier process. These are people willing to work, willing to pay taxes legally, but they do not have a way to do that and keep their family safe.

Many times the US will send them back to Mexico for years.. In the meantime , they could be murdered, or starve to death..

Can we agree that the people that want / need to be here and are willing to work, willing to pay taxes, willing to be productive should really have this opportunity? Honestly, What would YOU do if your family really was in danger at every moment and you absolutely had no money and no choice but to flee to a place to at least be able to try to survive. look at your children and be honest. I would do anything to make sure my child was going to be safe. Now imagine you do not have any option but to flee where you live to do this, Would you?

I cannot convince you differently, but let me give you some insight.

The illegals, I am assuming you are speaking about the ones from Mexico.. are coming here because they have families and that country is completely violent..

They do not have a middle class. If you do not have money you are dirt poor. Your children do not get a good education... if any education at all. The wealthy like it this way.

If you lived in a place like that what would you do? I am talking kidnappings, beheading, robberies.. all sorts of corruption and this begins with the government and police!

And so they risk their lives to get over here for a better life. They have no money, not knowing the language, but willing to work.. ANY job.

They would not mind becoming a citizen of the US, but the process is expensive, takes a lot of time and you need to be pretty fluent in the language. Remember again.. these people were usually not educated. They are willing to learn when given the opportunity.

But these are people that will do all of the dirty work for us here in the US. Pick our food, work on our streets in 100+ weather. Work on the sewers, work on roofs, construction.. again in the worst weather conditions. they Do not request breaks.

We have them take care of our children clean our houses, repair and upkeep our homes.. They can save enough money to pay CASH for houses. Yes, they pay taxes..

This influx is not going to stop.. And so what should we do?

Maybe consider making citizenship easier based on the person having a full time job, and being productive.. Would that be ok?

Maybe we could send the US citizens that have been on public assistance and not working or willing to work. out of the country?

These desperate people are just like all of our ancestors, They are trying to get away from a govt that is corrupt and does not care about them. They WANT to work. They want their children and families to be safe.

If you have ever worked with a person from Mexico.. you would be amazed at their dedication and hard work.. The assumption they are all drunks and thieves is not true. Sure there are a few.. just like Americans.. Actually there have been so many times, I have been a bit insulted by people saying.. "I thought Mexicans were supposed to be lazy..." They are actually my hardest workers and most dedicated to their jobs.

Give me a break about Pres. Obama not being a citizen.. I mean really? His mother and beloved grandmother were white.. they lived in Hawaii.. yes, it is part of the US..

And if you are not a citizen, you CANNOT in any way vote. You cannot get on public assistance either!!!! When will you all understand this? What will it take to educate Americans about his? .

That's what makes us differant from other countries! That's what our country was founded on.

I can't convince you of anything and don't have the energy to try.

What I can tell you is being an American is a giant stroke of luck that none of us did anything to deserve. Had I not been born American, and lived in squalid conditions, I would do everything in my power to get here and raise my kids here. We are all immigrants. Some have just been here longer.

I don't know why everyone is so up in arms either. Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with asking someone to prove they are here legally. We have to prove we are licensed to drive and that we are insured so why not that we actually belong here!

Pretty much I believe it's the illegal immigrants and their families that are so up in arms over it. We don't care what means the cops use to bust drug dealers, pedophiles, murderers, rapists, etc. We literally have no 4th Amendment rights anymore. Why should immigration be any different? If you are here legally, you shouldn't be bothered; in fact, you should be happy because the fewer illegal immigrants, the lower the expenditures of the state are. You know, illegal immigrants will be the only segment of our population not required to have health insurance if the health insurance reform bill passes. You and I, legal, tax-paying citizens will be sanctioned financially if we don't have health insurance, but the illegals will not and they will continue to be able to use our emergency rooms for health care and you and I will continue to pay for it. Now, how is that right?

I say, send them all back where they belong and let them apply to be here legally and then subject them to the same requirements as the rest of us!

I don't think illegial immigration is awesome, but it's reality, and once someone is here, it's kind of wrong (in my opinion) to deny them services. If we as a country wanted to stop illegial immigration we could. We could build a real fence along the border with Mexico. We could pay more for jobs that attract immigrants. Right now, US citizens simply don't want to work in poultry factories, or as brick layers or migrant farm workers. It's not like the illegial immigrants are taking jobs from citizens. They're filling a gap that results in benefits to us, the citizens. Illegial immigrants pay more in taxes (on average) than they pull out of the system because most are too scared to ask for social security, or to visit a hospital unless it's a real emergency.

Until we make it so that it's not attractive to come to our country, we have to allow immigrants children to go to school. It's not their fault that their parents took a chance and came to the US.

As for providing proof of citizenship when pulled over for a traffic stop, I think that's just wrong. No one is going to ask me (a white lady with light brown hair) to prove I'm a citizen. But cops WILL ask every single Mexican looking person for proof, and that's not fair. Just because someone is of Hispanic ancestry doesn't mean they should have to prove they're a citizen when their family might have been in this country far longer than mine.

I don't have an answer for you because it's not. We can't go to another country and vote or just make our lives there without going through whatever process they have.

It's not a stroke of luck that we were born American anymore than it is that someone was unlucky to be born another ethnicity or culture. It's God's work. Just what it is.

But if someone wants the rights to be America, they need to go through the legal channels. Unfortunately, it seems a lot of the ones doing it legally are the ones that are sent back home.

Ha. You actually have 2 Q's up.
_________________________

1) Why illegal immigration is "okay"?

The general consensus is that it isn't... which is why it's illegal. I, myself, will never get that up in arms about it for 2 reasons:

a) You can bet your last dollar, I would take my son and flee to another country that was safe if our country was recruiting child soldiers, in famine, insert several dozen other absolutely terrible and dangerous things. And NO I would not stay where I was and just let him be killed if I couldn't get there legally. MAMABEAR isn't an american thing. It's a MOTHER thing. Mothers protect their children, and they don't care, in general, if they'll have to work crappy jobs and live under the radar to save their children's lives. They make the sacrifice, and they run. ((Very, very, very few illegal immigrants come from first world countries with no danger to themselves. That's why ICE doesn't really care how "awful" your situation is.. because almost everyone's situation is awful.)) If I WOULD DO THE EXACT SAME THING FOR THE SAME REASONS it would be pretty hypocritical of me to be upset about it.

b) Faulty math. The more people, the more jobs, NOT fewer. People need the same things.... more people create more business opportunities or needs. Just as an example: 30 kids = 1 teacher. 60 kids = 2 teachers. Stagnant population is a problem. Growing populations = a healthier economy. People say 'illegal immigrants are taking / using up jobs", but the thing is, they're ALSO creating more jobs because they also need to eat, go to school, drive cars, get sick, go to church, read books, see movies, need police & firefighter access, go swimming, need childcare, etc. All things that their need and use of them is creating more jobs (although better jobs than illegals can get, they're creating jobs by their being here that pay more per year than they'll make in 10 years).

2) Why people get upset at proposed legislation the requires proof of citizenship.

Why people get up in arms is MOSTLY a safety issue (and why they rarely pass). Do you WANT drivers on the road who haven't passed a test proving they can do it safely? / Kids growing up ignorant and unable to read, unable to work/ feed themselves and their families, unable to pay taxes, etc. ? No one wants that. Just like very few people REALLY think the ER should just let someone bleedout if they don't have insurance or an ability to pay.

I don't think that is about illegal immigration. It is just a distraction from the real issues.

Voter ID is being called disenfranchising not because it actually stops legal voters but because it stops voter fraud. I know in my city alone 5% of the votes are from dead people. Clearly the person voting wasn't the person listed.

I feel like as a society we have reached a point where those that scream loudest get their way. There is no upside to being polite and obeying rules.

In Missouri they started around eight years ago that you had to prove your citizenship to get or renew your license so that you have a driver's license in our state proves it up, no extra requirement. Funny thing was no one made a fuss about that. I grumbled a bit cause I had to dig up paperwork but still..

I agree when it comes to voting or attending school, but getting pulled over opens up a whole can of worms that can infringe on people's rights. I'm a blond haired white woman, I don't think I'd ever be asked to prove my citizenship. My husband is a hispanic male, I think he'd be asked a lot. Is it fair that my husband be asked? Some may say it shouldn't bother him since he's legal and was born here, but don't you think it would bother you to have to constantly prove something based on your skin color? Growing up in school and in the work place, I always felt the need to prove how smart I was because I'm a blond, I couldn't imagine having to prove that I'm not a criminal based on my skin color.

Laurie A. said it best! Very good. She is completely right! If you have never lived in a country like theirs, you will never know. I was born in Nicaragua, I know how bad it can get.

My view is more pragmatic. There are many, many, many jobs currently being done by immigrants, most of whom could be here illegally. These jobs include dishwashers at restaurants, field workers on farms, gardeners, nannies, maids - basically the jobs we don't want to pay minimum wage for, as a society, and kids who were born and raised here don't want to grow up and do. So the question (to me, anyway) is: Are you willing to pay 25% more for everything you eat? (That's an arbitrary number, the actual number could be higher or lower - but just for the sake of discussion...) Are you willing to pay twice as much for child care? If not, then I wonder why we are so gung-ho on rounding up immigrants and shipping them back to wherever they came from. Realistically, although they're frequently demonized in the media, immigrants probably cost us as much as they save us. Financially speaking, they're as necessary to us in our economy as slave labor was in the pre-Civil War South. Would it be possible to get along without them? Yes. Would it be really painful to get there? Yes. My thought is, why even go there??

My other thought - my grandparents on my father's side came to the US in the 1920's from Ireland. During that time, the Irish were as vilified as many immigrant groups in the US are today (The Irish had to sit in the back of the bus, were spit on, people wanted them to go back to Ireland). My grandparents quickly learned to mimic a midwestern accent so they could "fit in" better. Fortunately, English was their first language so they could do that. Anyway, the point is, they did not have green cards when they came here. I'm not even sure if there was such a thing during those years. They didn't become citizens until much later - after my grandfather had fought for the US during WWII. They came here with no money at all, so if they'd needed an immigration lawyer or to pay for their papers, they couldn't have done it in any event. The point of this personal story is that I'm just glad that they did come here and that they weren't deported. I would venture to guess that most of us come from families who were immigrants at one time or another. Immigrants are just people who are looking for a better life. Why not give them a way to become Americans, if that's what they want? Our current immigration policy is a mess, impossible to navigate unless you can pay for a good lawyer (and even then, it's not easy). Just my opinion.

I am not going to convince you otherwise, I completely agree with you.
Why is everyone talking about the jobs? What does it matter what jobs do they do? Not all of them uneducated and willing to work for a low wage. Their children grow up American and compete with our children for colleges, schools, jobs, etc. They use and strain Emergency hospital resources, collect Public Aid and food stamps for their children born American... They do not pay taxes...Should I say more???

Well considering I found out that some of my own relatives, (born & bred here in the USA), don't pay taxes, can't seem to keep jobs and work the system for their own healthcare, food and even college tuition, the very same week my husband and I paid THOUSANDS dollars in taxes, I kinda think we need to clean up our own back yard, so to speak, before we point fingers.

Yes, I'm sure there are immigrants here illegally abusing what America has to offer. BUT we have our own legally abusing the system because they can!

Don't ask us in AZ what we think, its a VERY sore subject. =0/

This problem is quickly becoming less of a problem. It's become a great distraction from the issues that truly threaten our American way of life.

"According to a February report by the Department of Homeland Security, the number of illegal immigrants living in the U.S. actually dropped by a whopping 1 million between 2008 and 2009, which amounts to the sharpest decrease in 30 years. It was the second year of declining numbers." LA Times
The numbers have continued to decline the past few years as well.

We live in a diverse country; we need to capitalize on that diversity. We need to realize that as a society we all rise and fall together. Our greatest strength and unique edge we have in the world arena is the fact that we are made up of people from all over the world.

My ancestors we able to immigrate here, leaving behind a less prosperous life and seeking a better place to raise their children because America was trying to populate its land. Now, those who have immigrated for the very same reasons as Mexicans want to hang out the "All Full" sign. To me it flies in the face of what we stand for.

Just like the war on drugs there are nuances and complications in this issue that can't be easily solved. Not by making people carry papers, not by denying an education to a child and not by building a fence. It seems when things get tough (economically) people look for a scapegoat and an easy answer.

I am perplexed as to why the AZ government is having a hard time "rounding up" the undocumented immigrants in their state. It seems very inefficient to try to find them one by one, pulling over cars with brown people in them and checking to see if they are really Americans. Out here in Cali all you'd have to do is hit up your local Olive Garden, Walmart or strawberry field and you could arrest as many as you like.

I won't tell you illegal immigration is "okay" I'll just tell you this problem is unsolvable by using the methods adopted by AZ. Their laws will create far more problems down the road than they will solve.

Look, my Grandfather came into this country via Ellis Island. Heck, all of our forefathers, if we are not native American Indian, came into this country as immigrants. The difference that I see between my grandfather and today's illegal immigrants is that my grandfather learned a new language, adopted a new culture, and even changed his name to be more "American". He embraced this country and became a citizen to show his appreciation for becoming a part of the country.

This is not what I see in many of the illegal immigrants in my area. There is no embracing of this country, no attempt to become a citizen, and in many cases, no desire to become one. Is life here better than their home country? Of course - free medical, free education, social security benefits, public assistance, and more. But with no responsibility to the country and communities they are living in. In many cases, with no respect for the laws of our community either. Without documentation it is easy to disappear - therefore, easy to break the law and eschew responsibility for one's actions.

For fun, my son and I discuss what countries we would like to live in - I have looked up emigration requirements to several - and you know what - Other countries require employment, other countries have requirements in place that immigrant's not be employed over locals, some require that you be able to prove that you can support yourself before you can immigrate. Yet, we have organizations that strive to put the "rights" of illegal immigrants before the rights of citizens; that argue that illegal immigrants should be afforded equal rights to that of citizens - but, um, they are not citizens so how can they have the same rights as citizens? It puzzles me.

I know that my post will offend some = for that I do not apologize. My Grandfather was a good, hard working man, who had a deep and abiding love for this country and taught me the value of citizenship and worked hard to obtain his citizenship. For me, to think otherwise, would be to dishonor his memory.

I agree with Laurie, 100%

However, with all things, there MUST be a happy medium. Obviously we want to make it possible for struggling Mexican families to immigrate here, but a constant influx of illegals is a problem in my book.

I have no problem with people coming here, but they should do it legally. If "legally" makes it impossible (which it clearly does for many Mexicans), then we need to change the meaning of "legally".

So no, I won't convince you that illegal immigration is OK, because it's not.

I agree with you and there's no way I can think illegal immigration is something we should just ignore.
If you can't control your borders, what sort of a country have you got?
There are legal ways for people to come here to work, and coming here illegally is an insult to everyone who has gone the legal route.
I have a few friends who have come from India and have become US citizens, and now that they are here, they'd like the door closed behind them. Their words, not mine.
The biggest problem is the way those who hire illegal workers are not punished enough so that they won't do it again.
Any fines they pay now, if they get caught, are a slap on the hand and doesn't touch the profit they make by doing it.
Business wants cheap labor.
They go to great lengths to either import it legally (H1B visas) or illegally, or export the jobs to where the cheap labor is (most of the IT sector).
Business pays into political action groups which do their best to make sure government keeps things the way business likes it.
No political party is going to do a single thing about it.
It makes no difference who you vote in or vote out.
They'll argue, talk, debate, but it's all blowing wind and amounts to nothing.
The cost on one side cheap labor keeps prices down and wages down.
But on the other side is the cost of education and medical care, detention, deportation, and yes, it's a cost to print in multiple languages and it's out weighing any benefit people think we get from the other side.

I didn't read all the answers, but I liked what Amanda C said. What she said makes a lot of sense.

In addition, ALL the states need laws in place to make sure that vehicles are insured and if insurance lapses, to take away the vehicle tag. If all the states did that, illegals or legals would not be driving around without car insurance. That costs ALL of us, being hit by uninsured drivers.

Dawn

I am so tired of so many people taking our jobs, expecting me to learn a foreign language so my kids can go to school, so tired of being asked if I want to have my phone call in Spanish....

I do not care if someone is really trying to raise themselves out of poverty and make a better life for themselves. BUT when it effects me in so many ways I get annoyed.

I think it is truly sad when a Spanish speaking child can take up an English speaking child's place in a place like Head Start. They want the other child to have the advantage since they are not around English speaking people at all and need to be exposed to it....tell the parents they are living in a foreign country and they need to learn the language. If I lived in any foreign country they would expect me to know enough of the language to get by in the market or to find work.

I would be expected to read and understand traffic signs before I got a drivers license to drive in their country. I would not expect to go to their state offices and ask for food stamps to feed my family or ask for welfare benefits, or try to get food from a food bank. I would be expected to provide for my family out of my wages or go home.

Why do we let this happen? Why are we slowly being taken over by another nations citizens and allowing it, actually treating them better than our own people!

I don't get it either. I think that all persons who cannot prove they have permission to be here or that they are legally born citizens need to be treated equally and sent home or something. Our country is suffering terribly for this.

I fully realize that there are a lot of reasons people slip into the US. And there are a lot of jobs they do that we think are "beneath us" (which I think is stupid). We may not be paying higher prices in goods, but we pay higher taxes to support programs like public school. So in that IMO it's six of one half dozen of another.

I'm not going to convince you because I think it's not right to come here illegally. Our ex-au pair slipped in pretending to be an au pair and a student. She did such a horrible job that we fired her but she went to stay with friends vs going home. I have no illusions that she did leave when her visa was up or that she really enrolled in school like she was supposed to.

There are people who arrange for women to come here, pregnant, so that their child has citizenship even if they don't intend to raise that child here. They exploit a loophole for their benefit.

Then there's my friend whose parents came here seeking asylum, did all the right things and earned their citizenship when he was a young teen. He's miffed at the illegal immigration because his family did immigrate and do things the right way.

I see people I'm sure are not here legally all the time...and then I hear of stories where someone who has done all the right things can't stay even though he's taking care of a terminally ill partner. There has to be a better way.

Or the kids who are brought over by their parents, the parents stayed out of trouble, but the kids turn 18 and realize they have a TON of issues because Mom and Dad never made it right. And I really feel for those kids because they didn't do anything wrong but...now what?

I think it's a fine line between harassment and needing papers to travel and other scary historic references and asking for proof that you are who you say you are/came from where you said you came from.

I think the bottom line is we need to figure out a better way to handle immigration. Stop worrying about stupid things like who took drugs in professional sports and whether or not kinder eggs are a hazard and work through some of these real issues because right now it's a mess.

Oh, just as a side note, my stepson went abroad for a semester. He was told to have a certain amount on him IN CASH because he needed to prove he already had money and could support himself in that country for the timeframe of his student visa. He also needed bank statements from home. That was just for one semester in one other "first world" country. As a student on a visa, he was not allowed to work. He was granted permission to study, not to immigrate.

Everley has given an incredibly eloquent and thoughtful answer.

Heidi M, on the other hand ... Seriously? I hope you are being facetious.

If it weren't for the fact that Arizona is completely overwhelmed by their illegal immigration problem, I'd say that being able to prove your citizenship every time you left home is overburdensome. Sometimes I can barely remember to grab my wallet before I leave the house. Imagine if I was pulled over and didn't have my passport with me.

I am up in the air on it, but only because Arizona DOES have a terrible problem. For most states, I'd say, "Hell no" do I think we should have to prove our US citizenship if/when we are pulled over. "Ihre Papiere, bitte!"

eta: there is a big difference between "illegal immigration is okay" and "I don't want to have to present proof of citizenship if I am pulled over, or out walking, or at the grocery store..." To me (and I vote Republican or further to the Right), that is just burdensome.

I can not answer for what other countries are like...As I have only been out of my own three times...and all were very planned and pretty much an out and in type of thing.

I do think it is nuts that we have such horrible laws towards immigration. I know why we do...It is for Tax and money purpose's. The Gov't truly does not care about the number of people..They just want to make sure they get a cut of whatever the illegals make....Under the table normally.

That probably is a very one sided and wrong judgement on how things are done...It is the way I see and understand it though.

Honestly...We are all here on this planet for such a short time. Look how much of it we spend disliking other people.

Land is Land. It keeps us dry and provides a place to sustain our lives.

In my opinion I believe anyone has a right to be anywhere they feel safe. Whether it be AMerica...Europe...Or anywhere in between.

If it amounts to a money thing.....Then maybe it would be smarter for us to stop treating illegals like the scum of the earth and encourage them into taking the steps to become Citizen's.

But then again it is not about the fact they are illegals or undocumented for some.....Alot then has to do with a Race thing....Maybe not on the surface where you can see it loudly...but it is there.

What you are seeing with Voter Laws and what not is a push from the right to limit those who can vote this year. This Nation has not seen such a crack down on voting. They are doing it to make it impossible for minorities and other's to get out to the polls and vote.

Food for thought....Pretty much ALL voter Fraud that has taken place in the past few years has been from the side trying to crack down on it the hardest. Dead people are attempting to vote....DEAD PEOPLE.....The only way they could do that is if someone is fudging the facts and numbers.

Just my two cents on the matter. This is suppose to be a FREE country. They have been taking those rights away line by line with all this new legislation.

lol I wish I could send you guys to the Hill and weigh in!

I don't think Americans are as against illegal immigration as much as politicians fear discrimination and racial profiling.

I'm not so sure that I agree with Riley J's answer stating that more people/immigrants create more jobs. (and I'm not pointing the finger here, honestly) Yes, there may be more need, more people, creating more jobs, but the illegals aren't paying for it. So while 30kids=1 teacher, and 60kids=2teachers (all in theory), who's paying for this extra teacher?!

That is the question that I think bugs most people. As a Christian, or maybe just one human on this earth, in this country that I don't want to see fail, I do believe it is my duty to help those in need. My husband and I do this with our money, our time.... and apparently our taxes.

But, when children in my own neighborhood are suffering, families are struggling, but don't fall into the poverty bracket, or are just too proud, yet illegal immigrants are able to go to school for free, college even!, get healthcare that doesn't practically bankrupt them, and eat off of food stamps.... kind of bugs me.

Having said that... I would not stand by while someone died in the ER because they didn't have insurance, and I wouldn't turn a hungry person away when I have food to spare. I just also know that there is WAY too much enabling in our country that allows people who are capable of working, to not, and mooch off of everyone else.

I believe that the systems in place were founded with good intentions, but with human involvement, we screwed it up ;)

I agree with a lot that was said here, on both sides. I realize illegal immigrants may be coming from horrible conditions.... I think that maybe it should be easier for them to become citizens, while still holding them accountable. By easier, I mean let them prove (somehow) their interest in our great nation, and their dedication to helping it persevere.

I don't think that there is any easy fix, but just off on some random tangent... I think political correctness is debilitating our country.

Thanks for posting this. I've enjoyed reading the responses.

Hi, S.:

Many people do not want to be held accountable for their responsibilities. We, American citizens, have delegated to our government the task of setting up agencies, like the police force, to protect the lives and property of all the people. We pay for all our responsibilities. We don't know if these illegal aliens will harm anyone of us.
Just wanted to share.
D.

illegal immigration is not ok ! lets say you have three million illegals here, working, how many LESS jobs does that make for the people here LEGALLY ?? lets see, THREE MILLION !! lets say, along with those three million here illegally working you have an extra ten million dependents, guess how many can get welfare,food stamps etc. etc.
without documentation and without a waiting period..ALL OF THEM. nowhere else on planet earth can illegals get a sweet deal like they can get here !! its time to rethink this problem, the constitution was NOT written in spanish !
K. h.
the bottom line here is that people are ignoring the basic safety issues.. the countries where these illegals are coming from still have people dying of the plague and smallpox ! and they might have built up an immunity to it, but what about our kids who are exposed to these third world dieases at their school or playgroup ? i am part native american, so you kiss my rosy reds !! RACISM..please! since when is it racism to demand that a person prove they are here LEGALLY? my family came here with the mastadons, what about yours ?