Inclusion classrooms...do You Ever Question Them...?? with ETA...

Inclusion to the level that best suits the child is important. I folllow a blog called adiaryofamom.wordpress.com - one of her daughters is autistic and is in a specialized class in junior high. It is modified inclusive - specials - art, gym, etc. are inclusive; instructive classes are specialized. Because this is best for her - it balances her specialized needs with her social/education needes. 100% "typical" class would be overwhelming for her. Inclusion can't just be sticking a kid in a classroom. He's needing additional supports he's not getting. It sucks all around.

I'm all for inclusion but this doesn't sound like that to me. This sounds like a child who has much great needs then can be addressed in the classroom.

One child is running this classroom especially if they monitor his moods. To me, that is very stressful for the children in this class. Sorry, that is not fair to them.

No I would not feel comfortable with this and I would discuss it with the teacher.

My son is "Joe." As a parent of a child with extreme emotional/behavioral issues, and also a parent of kids without those issues, I completely understand.

My "Joe" no longer lives in our home and has not for 2 years. He is deemed too dangerous and requires 24/7 supervision as well as a team of people on hand to deal with his behaviors. My husband and I did this ourselves for over 10 years until he got bigger than me and stabbed me in the stomach with a chair leg and pushed me down the stairs. We adopted "Joe" when he was 4 (he is 16 now), along with his 2 brothers. Our life has been centered around their extreme needs since that day.

I can't speak for the other "Joe's" in the world, but I can speak for myself and my husband that our number one goal at all times is the safety of the other people (both children and adults) that are around our "Joe" at school and in the community. We have provided all people that work with him, including the school, with contingency plans for just about every possible scenario. The problem that we run into is that the school has certain rules about including our "Joe" in the school day. We don't get a say. For example, we believe that he should be immediately removed when he starts disrupting the room BEFORE things get out of control. Often they wait too long and then there is risk to everyone involved. We also do not believe that he belongs in any "mainstream" classrooms. His delays make it impossible for him to get any real information from the mainstream classes educationally, the class count is too high and creates too much stimulation for him, and often the 1:1 para is also responsible for other kids needing help in the classroom (but no one admits that) - causing him or her to take the attention off of our "Joe," which inevitability leads to a problem. Again, we don't get a real say in this other than what we can push through in his IEP regarding class sizes and types of classes he might succeed in.

You have every right to have to school provide you with what contingency plans they have in place to keep your child safe.

My son who is autistic has that hair trigger temper. He is very good at controlling it now, explaining his needs, all of that. He wasn't nearly as bad as this student you are describing in 3rd grade but my fear as his mother was he was either going to hurt someone or they would let this continue to the point where all the kids were afraid of him and avoided him. I mean what is the point of inclusion if none of the kids go near you, ya know?

What shocked me was I had to fight to have him placed in the special school setting until he got his temper under control. Think about that for a bit. Not only were they willing to leave him in the class as it possibly got worse and worse but I had to fight to get him into a better setting for him!

The whole thing is insane if you ask me. I suppose my son is lucky I was able to see his needs were not that classroom and fight for what he really needed. He spent a year and a half in the special school setting before he went back to middle school. He has a few verbal outbursts but never anything physical. Now he is just fine. He would have never learned to control himself in an uncontrolled setting.

Not sure if any of this is helping other than to let you know living on the other side I didn't want my child to hurt anyone either.

My heart breaks for Joe and his parents. Life is just so difficult for some. Really sad. However, I would also be nervous to have a "Joe" in my daughter's classroom.

I am an "Art Goes to School" volunteer. Last year I was teaching a 4th grade class when one of the boys just went berserk. He had an aide with him so I was aware he had issues but she was unable to control him. He started screaming not to touch him (nobody was touching him) and he had a classroom chair up over his head ready to throw it. Four adults ended up coming to the room to deal with his behavior. One of the things that absolutely amazed me though was that his classmates completely ignored him. I did my best to keep on teaching but I must say I was really nervous he was going to throw the chair and really injure one of his classmates.

This is disruptive to the whole class. I am all for inclusion but this is taking it way too far.

It sounds pretty extreme. We haven't experienced that.

My kids certainly have had kids in their classes who they were told not to anger. They've witnessed a few meltdowns. These kids have aides with them at all times. They also have a resource room at their disposal. It's handled pretty well.

Code word doesn't surprise me. My son's friend has epilepsy. They had a word so that kids knew to back away if his friend was having a seizure. It was just procedure.

In your case, you're talking about kids getting harmed. I wouldn't be comfortable with what you've described.

We have had our child be nervous in class because of a bully. I handled that by asking that the kids be seated far apart and not to stand near each in lines, have their cubicles on either end, etc. In that case, my son was affected by another child's behavior. The child was removed from the school at the end of the year. He had upset the whole class.

My kids exaggerate somewhat so I would start by talking to the teacher.

ETA: bullying obviously not the same thing - I just wanted to say how I have handled it when I had concerns for my child's safety. This boy did physically harm children.

InI would talk with the teacher about this.I would ask who writes IEPs and talk with them. My 13 yo grandson has been in inclusion classrooms starting in preschool. He was often on the verge of not being able to manage his anger. There were always an aide to give one on one attention. There were plans in place to manage acting out kids. My grandson was often out of the classroom to calm down. I have spent time in his classes. They would never allow a kid that you describe to stay in the classroom. He would immediately be removed. A trained aide would have a plan specific to each kid to help him calm down. The teacher and aide's were trained to do holds to get the child out.

I would get more information. I think that having kids leave the classroom, indicates this child is dangerous and should not be in the classroom. I'm wondering if they send the other kids out because they can't physically restrain him. If that's what is happening, I think that having him in thE classroom at all is an unsafe environment.

Our school district has one school with aide's having more skills to deal with angry acting out kids. My grandson went to that school for a couple of years. The acting out child was taken out of the classroom and helped to calm down.

Besides having experience with my grandchild, I'm a retired police officer. An angry out of control person is always "taken down" so they don't hurt anyone. Perhaps, by holding an arm behind their back or, if possible, walk him away from others. TheRe are holds for the teacher and aides to use in the situation you describe.

Safety is paramount. I suggest the kids leaving the classroom are frightened. I suggest that it's essential for all of them to feel safe. What you describe doesn't feEl safe. I suggest this classroom is not safe when this kid is in the classroo m. Children should not have to monitor this boy's mood and actions. When students need to monitor one kid to feel safe, it's giving them adult issues to manage. I would go to the teacher to get more information, to know the teacher's concerns. To know if you need to speak out. The decision to keep thi boy in the classroom is made higher up than the teacher. She may welcome support in this case. I would ask to observe in the classroom.

It would make me very uncomfortable. I don't know "Joe's" problems, or what has or could be done to help him overcome them or learn to manage them better, or if either of those is even truly possible. But I do know that there are limits to what other people (especially children) should be required to be exposed to in an effort to make things better for that one child. There are a lot of things I would be ok with, but a student so severely out of control and violent that the teacher has a CODE WORD to EVACUATE the students?? I would NOT be ok with that.
And were "Joe" my child, I would be fearful of him hurting a child, from the sounds of it. I am not sure I'd be ok with it as his parent, either.

When my mom was teaching school there was a 19 yr old who was mentally on a 6th grade level included in one of the classes on her floor.
One day he was using the boys room when another kid just flicked the lights off and on again.
Just stupid kid stuff but stuff that kids typically do.
This 19 yr old guy flipped.
He grabbed the kid by the throat and was choking him yelling "You shouldn't do that!".
The kid was turning blue - it took 3 male teachers to pry this 19 yr old off the other kid.
The 19 yr old was removed from school.
When the special student can be violent - I'm sorry but I don't think inclusion should be an option for them.
The other kids shouldn't have to be held hostage to the situation and if anyone does get hurt - they should sue the heck out of the system that allowed it to happen.
Some people really do belong in a rubber room when they are a danger to everyone around them.

it's nice that they continue to attempt inclusion.
it's not nice when it interrupts and ruins the learning experience for an entire class.
i would not tolerate my kid being in a class where he was in physical danger from another student in an ongoing situation.
in middle school my older son was a 'buddy' (i can't remember the actual term) for an autistic girl who was prone to frequent outbursts in class- screaming over a broken pencil tip, that sort of thing. the empathy was nice, but almost no instruction took place in that class.
that was a tertiary reason i chose to homeschool.
khairete
S.

I would expect this child to have a full time dedicated aide. While inclusion is a great goal, other children should not have to face being choked or hit and a dedicated aide should prevent this.

I was almost Joe's mom at this time last year. My son is in second grade and on the Autism Spectrum. That's actually a recent diagnosis. We've been working with doctors since our son was 3 trying to figure out how best to help him. It's an ongoing process.

Our son was in our neighborhood school for 1 1/2 years. He was not a mean child at all, but he did not know how to handle his emotions. He would get overwhelmed or embarrassed and dive under his desk or shove a chair because he was upset. He was completely oblivious to the students around him and any danger he might put them in. he was simply too young and too self-focused to even realize they were being affected.

We (our son, really) are so fortunate that our son can attend an alternative school. They have a very small student to teacher ratio and are staffed by individuals trained to work with kids with special needs. He is in a class with other students on the Autism Spectrum, and this has been a the best situation for him.

My husband and I really did feel bad for how the other students were effected by our son's behavior, but honestly, we didn't have the time or energy to focus on that too much. Our son was stressed and overwhelmed and scarred and just absolutely miserable at school. He needed to be in a different environment. This wasn't a healthy situation for our son.

I can't help but wonder Joe would really benefit from being in a different environment. Maybe inclusion is really not in his best interest. I'm not sure it's at all your place to say that to the teacher or principal, but if there is an alternative situation available, I wonder if he would be happier and more successful.

ETA - I agree with Mamazita and chacha that before you do or say anything you should talk to the teacher and try to find out what is happening from the school's perspective. At this age, obviously it is still difficult for kids to have a proper perspective and truly understand all that is happening.

I think part of the reason that it seems some of us might be taking this at face value is that this is just not one of those things that a child could or would make up. If my child came home with a story like this, I would be questioning whether or not he got some of the details right, but it's just one of those things I know he wouldn't have come up without a lot of truth behind it.

The situation you describe is one part of the reason we are homeschooling now.

I'm changing my response a little because I have had time to think about this more. Earlier, I cited several incidents my son had to deal with at public school. As the mom of a kid who was bullied by students like Joe, I do have a bias toward expecting/requiring more support for students with these sorts of issues. Having volunteered and witnessed countless times the behavior of one or two kids holding the entire class up, there is something very clear to me: the adage is true that kids learn best when they feel safe. When there is chaos, no one is learning.

What you are describing is an unsafe situation. I really wish we had what some call 'B' classrooms; behavior rooms. There, the ratio of kids to instructors is much lower, the group is smaller, there are less stressors for kids with sensory, social, or other challenges. The pace can be slower, kids are given more therapeutic options, they are given more space and structure to recover from upsets. For some kids, this would actually provide the inclusion that AK mom addressed in her answer. No, isolation is not ideal, and being in a room with more support would directly help many kids. As Julie S cited, giving kids the time and place to practice self-regulation/self-management skills would be an asset to the schools and all students. I'd love to see a situation where kids could 'go back' to B classrooms *when* they chose to, when an inclusion class felt too overwhelming. If a student feeling overwhelmed and angry can seek support before exploding, that would be a lovely thing.

Having a student with challenges myself, I can tell you that a slower-paced but academically-equal classroom would have been great for my son. The shortness of the work times and rapid transitions were often too much for him. A quiet classroom could also be a haven for kids who need more time or less busy-ness around them in order to get their work done. I don't think we have to look at alternative classrooms as some sort of throwback to punitive exclusion, but as a safe space for children who need more support, period.

(I want to add, R., great that you are making the accommodations. Our son's last teacher threw away all of the fidgets we'd made for the class and regularly got upset with him for being off task. His self esteem tanked. We are working on helping our bright little boy to build his perception of himself as a capable learner back up. Thank you for taking the time to be willing to do what's right for the kids! We need more teachers like you!)

i think the school needs to reevaluate joes inclusion.. and move him to a more appropriate room.

Talk to the teacher. I can't believe all the advice you're getting here based on second hand hearsay from a child, but I guess this is the non thinking world we live in now.
Find out what the real deal is. Children are notoriously dramatic and you've "heard" stories, but have you observed any of this behavior yourself?
As a former teacher I can't believe you don't know to take everything your child says with a grain of salt.
And certainly if it turns out that this child is in fact a danger to himself and others, well then by all means, speak up!

In this case I would expect the student to have a one-on-one aide in the classroom at all times, does he? And if he does, is the aide properly trained and attending to him or is she or he being used as a general classroom aide? My nanny was hired as a 1:1 aide for an autistic student in an autism classroom and she ended up being used to help everyone and her student did not get the help that she was supposed to provide just to him. As a teacher, perhaps you could have a teacher-to-teacher chat with your daughter's teacher and find out what the situation is and what the long-term plan is? I would assume that for confidentiality purposes she can't share much with you but you can make your concerns known.

I would honestly hope that this is temporary and that the plan right now is in place until they can get through the administrative red tape of getting this student the services he needs, be it a 1:1 aide, placement in a classroom better suited for behaviorally impaired students, or placement out of district. It sounds like his needs cannot be met with the accommodations that a typical inclusion classroom can offer. A friend's daughter had major emotional and behavioral issues that were apparent from Kindergarten but it took years to place her out of district (she is now a young teen and lives in a residential treatment facility, where she is also schooled). In the meantime, she would have violent outbursts at home and school and could trash a whole classroom in a few minutes, trashed the principal's office, etc. It was a horrible situation for everyone but they were all doing everything they could to manage this while the placement process was carried out.

Joe is so violent that the teacher had to develop an evacuation plan for the class? They have a secret code phrase? Wow. That is extreme. If he actually is as violent as your daughter makes him seem, no, I would not feel comfortable with my kids in a class like that. School should provide a safe and secure learning environment. In this type of classroom setting how can the kids focus on learning when the basic need of physical safety is not met?

My initial reaction to your post is that if I were in your shoes, I would pull her out. But I would weigh carefully the fact that you really like the teacher/your daughter loves being in the class with a whole bunch of her friends with the likelihood and the severity of actual physical injury before making any decision.

My only comment now is to agree with mamazita that you should independently verify this story that your daughter has told before you react. And what a story it is - the violence, the upheaval! And now, a secret escape code word!

I'll have an easier time commenting on this once I find out which parts of this are really true.

I can understand the uneasiness, but the other side of the question is should joe be exiled and forced to always be alone because of what he "might" do? Would isolation help or hurt efforts to help joe adjust to life and the world he has to live in?

We have a similar student in our school, I am proud that my boys have always been friendly with this boy, including him in their games at recess and standing up with him when others picked on him. And you know what, over the years this student has improved. I do wonder if he would have made those improvements without friends and acceptance. Just food for thought.

I'm conflicted.

On the one hand, including Joe could potentially help him adjust to the world, and provides him with the opportunity to observe what good behavior and self-control look like. Also, including Joe helps other kids realize that the world is full of all kinds of people, and hopefully they develop empathy and kindness towards all the Joes out there, by seeing them as people, by getting to know them a little. And including Joe helps his family get some precious time away from him, because with a child that demanding it's hard to do errands, clean the house, take care of other kids, etc.

On the other hand, Joe is disruptive to the learning process and the classroom environment. The class is not free to put their heads into books without constantly surveilling the room, and Joe. The teacher puts extra time into creating a plan in case Joe erupts in violence. And this isn't potential violence that teachers plan for but don't expect to happen (a gun threat, a tornado) - this is real, everyday, "yes-its-going-to-happen", definite stuff.

On the other hand (yes, I realize I now have listed three hands - I only have two in real life, but in this case I need another), at any time, our kids could be exposed to danger. Its not just Joe that we have to worry about, it's Steven and Justin and Samantha and Lily-Ann, and that teacher that got fired last semester, and a parent who's infuriated that his or her precious snowflake didn't get an A+ in every class, even though Snowflake didn't do the required work or study for tests who could snap at any minute. So, inclusion or not, its a sad reality that being in this world always can bring danger. Maybe having Joe in class helps the other students and the teacher be more vigilant in general? Maybe Joe will help someone develop an awareness of mental health issues. Just think about how many news stories we hear where the neighbors say "he was the nicest man; I never would have thought that he could do this". Its sad but real.

On the other hand (I know, that's 4), some school staff have to endure parents who demand that their child be included, even though it's not a good idea. Some parents threaten with lawsuits and refuse to be reasonable. Sometimes the school's hands are tied and they just have to make a place for Joe. And then, some parents are desperate. There is no place for Joe and they have nowhere to turn. I have a nephew whose parents are well-educated and financially secure. However, the nephew is bipolar, and he OD'd and survived but he had a stroke as a result. His behavior is much like Joe's, except he's about 25. He needs constant supervision, and should be in a group home, but all the calls they have made have turned up nothing. There are homes for all kinds of conditions and diagnoses, but not for his combination of conditions. They're getting desperate. We need more access to care options in this country, more help for mental illness, and more resources. My nephew's parents have all the time and money to find him a place but instead, they live in fear in their home, wondering when he will have another manic episode. Its the Joes in this country who need a better way to get educated and stay safe and grow to be the best person that they can be.

I think you're doing the right thing. You're helping your daughter be safe and aware, not disparaging Joe, and not sheltering your daughter in a closet at home. But I would perhaps have a Plan B in the back of your mind - if Joe's behavior deteriorates, if your daughter feels too uncomfortable, if the school isn't appropriately managing things, if the education starts to take second place to just tiptoeing around Joe, what would you do? Is there a private school, online public schools, homeschool, or a different school in your district that maybe might be an option? Stay calm, document events, consider a Plan B, and encourage your daughter to be careful without being scared. Give her permission to leave the room if she has to, if Joe is choking people or throwing things.

No, I would not feel comfortable in this setting nor would a child.

What this is teaching your child is to be co-dependent. She's learning to gauge someone else's mood and adjusting her actions so she doesn't set them off into a violent tirade.

This child isn't able to be included in normal classrooms. He needs to be placed in a special ed class where he can work at his own pace and perhaps even be under the supervision of one adult person who is strong enough to restrain him and keep others safe.

I have a LOT of years in developmental disabilities and your child has the right to feel safe in her environment. She has the right to not gauge another student's mood so she can change her actions.

This boy does have a right to an education but he does NOT have the right to scare or intimidate or frighten other children and them be forced into accepting that as normal.

It's time to have a parent meeting for your child's classmates and discuss this. Rationally.

Perhaps a parent can volunteer every day for a few weeks so they can let the parents know what a typical day is really like. This way various parents can say "It's very strenuous" "It's like any other classroom but this kiddo gets frustrated sometimes and acts out" "This kid is a danger to the other students and needs to be removed" "This kid isn't much different than the other kids and he has an aid to help him through his rough times".

Is there not a school in your school district for children like him? Usually there is.

I would be asking what the parameters are that they finally move a child. AND I would be asking what kind of services this child is getting. He needs a child psychologist at the very least.

Wow, that is crazy. My daughter is in high school and has a few classes with special needs kids. I love the inclusion, and she comes home with some endearing and cute stories, I'm glad she has this exposure and the kids seem to mostly be kind and helpful to these kids. However, it would be a game changer if there was a violent child.

I agree with others, this child needs an aide with him at all times. This is asking WAY too much of the students and especially the teacher. This is way beyond reasonable expectations and accommodations.

It might be worth having a conversation with the teacher just to clarify the circumstances, it might sway you one way or the other. Fourth grade is old enough to likely get many details correct, but there might be more going on behind the scenes that you and your daughter are not aware of. Not sure why others assume you wouldn't do this, the snark was probably not necessary. :-)

I also have to say that I am so impressed by MilitaryMom6's story and perspective. Awesome of her to share what is certainly a painful part of her life.