Secrets and Rules, 4.5 Year Old

1-2-3 Magic.

Blowing in Daddy's face is disrespect. That is a bigger offense than it sounds like you think it is. It isn't playing or teasing. It is DISRESPECT. Flat out. That deserves a major consequence... not missing out on a story an hour later.
I disagree that spanking begets children who hit more. But if it doesn't work for your family, fine. It did for ours and I have no apologies about it.

As for leaving the park? I never just counted down 10 minutes, 5 minutes and then "let's go". I ALWAYS counted down "In about 10 minutes... "in another 5 minutes..." and then "Okay, time is up, go do ONE LAST THING, and then we are getting in the car."

Running off after you said get in the car is direct disobedience, not "trouble transitioning".

For a 2 1/2 year old, I never gave them the "option" to keep playing and get no dinner. That is silly. They are a small child who cannot grasp the long term consequences. You are the adult who knows best and needs to make sure it happens.

Giving choices is all well and good, especially at 2 1/2, but not for playing vs. dinner. That is reserved for which color socks to put on, or whether to put their left shoe or their right shoe on first.

You're right you don't want to have to threaten. But you do want to act. She shouldn't even have all the way to five before you deliver a consequence for these things. Beware of the phrase "developmentally appropriate" which has become code for "acceptably bratty" in the psych community that opposes effective discipline. Just because kids will naturally act that way without effective discipline doesn't mean it's appropriate. At her age, this is URGENT. Ditto Dawn. You also shouldn't have to tiptoe around her with all the count downs and last chances and all that. There will still be an oppositional battle at the end of your jumping through hoops, so just cut to the chase the first time you say something or she'll know she's in charge of you. The book Back to Basics Discipline by Janet Campbell Matson is excellent for this age ESPECIALLY for instilling independence, respect, good behavior, and preventing the anger (hubby) that naturally follows terrible disrespect like spitting at a parent. She should never feel free enough to act that way without knowing there is SERIOUS and IMMEDIATE reckoning for it. My oldest daughter is now six and never tried these things beyond age 3 after one or two discipline episodes for attempts. My younger two are 4 1/2 and 3 and also would not dare and they are happy vibrant kids. Toughen up! This is only "normal" if she gets away with it. Leaving a park and not reading books are not firm consequences. You do NOT want to get even gentler.

edit* The "evidence" you will read about spanking in studies which are citing abusive scenarios and calling it "spanking" and the evidence you will see in kids raised with spanking used appropriately are two different universes. If your child started beating up her brother when you swatted her a couple of times, she knew you would back down. In other words, corporal punishment worked to modify your behavior when she used it. Guess who has been hit, kicked, bitten etc numerous times by "time out" kids? my kids who never act aggressively having been spanked. I too NEVER was mean or aggressive and in the 70's, yeah, my brother and I got spanked. We also didn't throw fits or spit at our parents.

Everything you're talking about is pretty age appropriate. She saw this friend do this so it's a little naughty and a little "fun" right now. It won't last long. I remember a friend who's son went on a daddy son camping trip around age 4. When he came home the first thing he said to his mom was "MOMMY!!!!! Me pee'd in the woods!!!!!" And so he did that for a couple of weeks at home too.

It was something totally different and fun. He decided it wasn't fun anymore.

The acting out with her friends is something that isn't always this drastic but
she should be okay in a few months. Be strict with her and do a time out sitting by you. Impulse control takes a lot of time. She is acting without thinking it through. Kids this age don't always have the cognitive development at this age to do more than that when playing and lots of distractions going on. Be patient with her. Again, time out sitting by you for doing this.

As for the teen behavior, I don't really understand that whole paragraph.

Here's what I do at the park. I tell them about 10 minutes before I want to start the trek to the van that they have a few minutes left. Then about 3 minutes later I remind them it's about time to go, say goodbye. Then at the 5 minute mark I tell them to get stuff picked up and bring it over. Then if they don't come when I say get in the van, I go pick them up and take them to the van.

They need a long transitional at this age. They just don't have the ability to process "It's time to go, get in the car". They cannot turn their brains off and do something else at this age. They might be able to do that much better if their brain has some time to get ready for that.

As for the blowing in dad's face, our's would have gotten a swat on the hiney and time out. That's just one of those things that is way across the line in this house.

J., she's got you and your hubby wrapped around her little finger, and she knows it. Gamma is spot on - she needs some quick, hard discipline - that blowing in her daddy's face IS spitting - this is how she is showing her RULE over you both. She needs a spanking, pure and simple.

You say you want to move away from anything involving threats, but your thought process is moving away from what is going to set your daughter straight. The more you move away from swift retribution for her transgressions, the more transgressions and defiance you are going to have. She is pushing the envelope SO hard, and you are just giving up mounds of territory here. "Developmental" it may be - but instead of moving out of this, she is going gun-ho straight into oppositional/defiant land.

You need to give her hard consequences. Sit down with her before you take her anywhere that she pulls this stuff. Tell her that you and her daddy are tired of x,y, and z. No more of it will be tolerated. Tell her that she will NOT like your consequence and she had better not do any of the x,y, and z.

She will do it just to test you. She will want to know just how far she can push. You must push back and HARD. Surprise the beejeebers out of her.

Another thing I want to say is that if she cannot keep her hands off of people and things, if she wants to crash into stuff, you really should take her to an occupational therapist and ask for some sensory integration help. It can make a huge difference for a child who craves sensory FEEL. You give them what they NEED in proper and appropriate ways, so they aren't bouncing off the walls and their siblings. It can help with impulse control because they are getting their needs met other than needing to slam into what happens to around them and is convenient (like her little brother.)

If you don't get ahold of this, you'll have MORE wild child and more hurt people all around her for a long time. Stop being afraid of being a tough parent. I promise you that it's much easier to be a tough one NOW than to have to hit the wall when she's 13.

Good luck,
Dawn

You know how different ages get labeled (like "terrible twos"), for good or for ill? Well, there's a label for four-year-olds.

They rejoice in their own bodies and brains, such as they think they are. They try things out - AGAIN. They test the boundaries - AGAIN. They can definitely become defiant. What was taught before may need reinforcing now, on a four-year-old level.

Running away when called by a parent is not acceptable in fours any more than it was in twos. Start over again: "When I call, you come. When you go the other way, you don't come back to the park for a while." Then follow through with it. Don't be afraid to.

It will be a definite inconvenience, but at four she needs to experience the consequences of her choices. (That might be good for your younger one to see, too.) Consequences are NOT threats. Threats are making you scared to do something. A consequence is simply what happens when you make a choice. If Mommy drives carelessly, the consequence is not that she gets threatened; it's that she gets a ticket and must go to court. Nobody's sending her to the judge because they're angry and want to scare her; it's simply because Mommy broke the traffic rule!

Actually, children *like* rules - once they see that they're real rules and not just jabbering. There are some rules about playing kindly with other people - including brothers - and not hurting them. Those rules apply to the grabbing and shoving.

If your girl chooses to plays keep-away when it's dinner time, start the meal without her. That's what *you* can choose! When she comes in, she may eat in the kitchen under your supervision. Don't talk much about it. It's just a consequence. You do the right thing, it's happy in the end. You do the wrong thing, you lose out. That helps her learn to make the good choices.

You can tell your daughter that the only secrets she should have right now are what she's going to give her mommy and daddy for Christmas. Doing something in secret does *not* make it all right. Would it be all right if you secretly mixed dog food in her breakfast cereal (or something else that will make her laugh)? No! So her friend went to the bathroom outside? That doesn't mean that she may. Her friend won't even do it much longer - he's probably already learned how icky it is.

Blowing in Daddy's face, besides being unsanitary, is teasing (an mild form of bullying) and is not acceptable. What is a consequence of teasing?

Raising children is always two steps forward, one or two or three steps back. Keep letting your daughter know what the boundaries and the consequences are, in a firm but friendly way, and don't let her get you involved in long intellectual conversations instead of obeying. It feels as if you're starting over, I know, but that's a parent's job, so you get to do it.

Okay I'm confused you say " i know she is a teenager", I believe she is more like a preschooler, teenager means +13. You also say her trouble is that se lies and she said to you it was okay cause they were secrets, then you say "she has a point"? Excuse me? I don't understand where you are at a loss of why she lies if you, yourself believe lies are okay so long as they are "secrets". Perhaps in reading and interpreting it wrong but she lies because she most likely hears you lie and say to her "it's our secret" or something along those lines. I have an idea to try and kick her habit of lying, try kicking your mentality that it's okay to like so long as you don't get caught. Your DH is okay and thinks its normal for her to urinate or deficate outside and is not at all tempered, but when she puffs her face at him he totally looses it?? Wow.

Okay, sorry, but peeing outside is not normal. You need to tell her that that is simply not acceptable except in case of emergency like you're in the woods and there is no bathroom available. You could let her know that doing that can get her arrested if a cop sees her or if someone else sees her and calls the cops. It's just plain nasty. Also, have her stand where she peed when it's hot. It smells! No, this is not okay and she just needs to know that this is not any more acceptable than going naked outside.

As for the opposition, why wouldn't she push it. You count to five before she has to do anything. She's used to that. She knows that she does not have to obey the first time you tell her something. This is your doing. You need to change the rules NOW. She is told once and if she doesn't obey, then a consequence. How many people do you think are in the world who are going to patiently wait to tell your daughter something five times? Probably two - you and her dad. The rest of us will just move on.

Check out Love and Logic. I really think it will help. A lot of it is just rephrasing how you deal with your daughter, and never making threats unless you plan to go through with them. They have a website and books. Our boys are older now, but Love and Logic worked well with our parenting style, and helped us a ton when our boys were younger. Here is the website: www.loveandlogic.com .