Time Out - Buffalo,NY

Hi D.,
I'm glad to see you've decided on a method you think will work. I would just add that when you do need to give him a time out, remember the old 1 minute a year rule, 4 yrs old = 4 minutes in time out. Also, crying is one thing, tantrum-ing is another. For my daughter, the time out doesn't start until she stops throwing a fit. She can cry because she is sad she is being punished, but she can't scream, she has to sit nicely. Good luck!
A.

For a minute I thought I wrote this and didn't know it!! :) I too am the mother of a very energetic 4 year old. He is very sweet and fun but also very mischievous and stubborn. You can't feel bad about him crying in time out. He cries because he knows you are going to let him up when he does. He is going to have to learn who is in charge because from the sound if things, he probably knows it is him. You can also try taking away a favorite toy for a couple of days and give it back when he starts acting better. Stay strong and firm in punishments. Good luck!

It's hard when your child cries...we all know this, but look at it this way...he needs to follow the rules to be SAFE...not because you want him to. Children at a young age can't tell the difference between the really important rules(like don't play in the street) and the manners rules(don't jump on the sofa)...don't bend...decide what you are going to do for a punishment and stick with it...it will be really hard at first as you've already established a pattern of caving, but stick with it...this is your child we're talking about, not a dog you can take to the pound because it's more than you bargined for...I tell my kids...my job is to keep you safe, fed and hopefully turn you into people who make good decisions later in life....that being said...when he was little it was considered cute when he was fresh, now it's not so cute anymore and the pattern has to change...don't go hard core discpline...but make a chart with things he can see and understand...and include chores!!! Chores help everyone..lil kids want to feel important and helpful, the less you do the more time you get to enjoy your kids...chores need to be age appropriate...set and clear table(even my 2 yearold helps with this)make own bed, put away clothes...I fold them and lace them on each childs bed...they do the rest...sort socks, feed the pet,clean the bathroom(using kid safe cleaners)and so forth...all 5 of my kids do these things...and it'll help with his self esteem and rule following issues as well...also my fav game to play when they are young and don't want to help is the mommy no game...everytime they ask a question I say no I don't want to make your lunch, tie your shoes, wipe your butt, turn on the t.v....whatever and then we talk about my job again and what their job as a child is...to play, have fun, and follow the rules...etc...good luck!!!!

Ha.........you loose, you took him out of the corner. he's now the boss. I have three children and I will tell you that it is the biggest commitment of life to pick a punishment and stick to it. You are not giving clear messages by letting him out. Your message is you can play us like a flute baby! Not good for you. The kiddie jackpot for him!

I gave my kids time outs in the corner. A minute for each year old they are is the guideline. Do they stay in the corner? NO WAY. This is where the commitment comes in. Each time I gave a time out I had to physically hold them in the corner by standing in back of them for the entire time out. I set the timer and they did not move until it went off. This meant wrestling the first few months. They it was mere blockading the second three. After about 6 months they stood in the corner by themselves. This means that each time you give them a time out you get one too. If all yours does is cry but stays in the corner you are a lucky dog. Cash in on that. If you want a brat in training who will raise the bar and do more because there are no consequences just keep feeling sorry for him. He's not going to feel sorry for you guys. He's gonna say "hot dog.......I'm the one with the power and let the games begin".

Your child could stay in the corner quicker than mine or take longer. So don't freak when I say 6 months because that is my children not yours necessarily.

Oh, you can alter this a bit too. If your child is 5 and you don't want to spend 5 minutes in the corner with them cut it down to two to start out with. Once you are consistant with it and he knows you are not budging any longer you can also threaten to give him a raise in his minutes if he pisses you off or you need more leverage.

Ha...........isn't that neat? I'm alomst feeling like Marie Barrone right now!

Don't like the corner? Just send them to YOUR ROOM for a few minutes. Make sure there is nothing for them to do in there. Even their own room is fine. It's just about the power and who caves in first. Set limits you can handle so you can be consistant without wanting to shoot yourself in the head or give up.

If you love him find something you can commit to and do it consistantly. But think about it long and hard before you even start it. don't rush into anything you can't commit to or.......mixed signals again, and your creditability is even more damaged.

OK, public places. Here is a good one where you won't look like a MEAN ABUSIVE PARENT. When my son acted up I threatened to kiss him to death with lots of lipstick on if he did not behave. (carry a tube in your purse so you can show him the ammo) It worked as a diversion in a funny way. Anyone who overheard it cracked up which releaved the tension and he ended up loving the attention he received by squaking about getting kissed. Hey, let me tell you that my 6th grader (the baby) has a meltdown if I threaten to kiss him in public. When he gets to be too much I tell him that if he does not straighten up I am going to ambush him with kisses in front of the kids at school when he least expects it and he straightens right up. Punishment does not have to be whips and chains........kisses are awesome weapons to a kid too. The older they get the more they freak if you even mention kiss and them in the same sentence.
Ain't life grand?

L.

Hi D.
Congrats on your lovely family.
I know that today's discipline is time out. I know that it works with some children. I did not have much success with it either, my problem however sounds different than yours. My would get more and more wild til he was kicking out the walls etc, yours sounds like he cries and you can't stand it. I thought the purpose of time out was to let them cool off, calm down, and get control of themselves. Until they stop crying they can't do that, however, if they are never going to stop crying they aren't going to do that. Time out is punishment after all and they don't have to like it.
So is your question how to discipline if you don't use time out. I don't know whether you read an earlier answer to someone's discipline problem that I wrote but my mom helped me tremendously with my situation. This is what it takes:
I had to really get to know my son so I knew what would upset him before it did.
Then I averted the problem.
Which means you have to not be caught up in what you are doing so much that you don't see, hear, or know what is happening else where. You must be on top of things.
This is how it works on my easy example, trust me all were not this easy to figure out because it was my younger son who was difficult to discipline, so I had the influence of the older son.
An hour after our older son got home from school. There was battle royal, every day. It was crazy!!! I never knew who to correct, but mom came. She was there 2 days and said why don't you just feed younger boy and the problem will solve itself. I didn't know how she knew that but I gave the boys a snack, and no more fighting. They did eat their dinner.
When I asked mom how she knew she said it was worth a try --- it worked with you girls.
Warm whether caused one of my boys to get wild, MD said the heat rash. Now I can't change the whether but I can change what we do in the whether, or keep them out of it and in the air conditioning.
You have to figure out the real cause and change that. It is never the cause you think it is. It is not he did, or he said=== however it is often I don't know how, or environmental. Check those first.
Frustration I found to be the biggest problem. Because this child was hyper smart, when he couldn't _____ he would get mad and throw things. Right now I am doing therapy with a K, who does the same thing. His mother is wild with frustration because he breaks stuff: mirrors, doors etc --- I said to him as we worked it is ok not to be able to do things but you have to tell us so we can help you learn. Learning is fun. He doesn't have the vocab to verbalize all so you have to work out the situation but we have a beginning. His mom is amazed that I think he is a good little fellow.
Talking helps tremendously, when you talk ahead of time not in the heat of the problem.
Does that mean you never have to punish -- no of course not but if you avert punishment so it is not an every hour situation you can cope when it happens.
Thanks to Mom I could/can still figure out the situation.
God bless you and give you wisdom as you watch and pay attention to figure out your situation.
Do let me know if it works --- do let me know if you don't understand, and let me help you if you don't.
K. SAHM married 38 years --- adult children - 37, coach; 32, lawyer, married with 6 mo; 18, college student, fine arts 3.7 GPA, on campus; 18, college student, journalism 3.8 GPA living at home. Yup they are twins.

D.,

Time for tough love sweetie. You have basically asnswered your own question. You say you give him time outs and he cries and you let him out? How is that teaching him anything. All you are teaching him is how to manipulate you two. When you discipline a child it is for his own good and developement. You want him to grow up to be a good person, so these are the things you have to do as a parent. Trust me, no parent likes to see their child cry, but they learn very quickly how to get their way. Next time he acts out, stick to your guns and keep him in time out for 4 minutes. If he gets up, the timer starts again. It will just take a few times for him to get it!

I know how you feel , I have a 4yr old granddaughter that sounds your son, what my daughter does is take away what she likes and keeps her in her room until she behaves, she cries and throw tantrums but my daughter sticks to her guns, me im the grandmother want to help but cant, so maybe that could probably work, good luck hope I helped in something ok
God bless

Oh D., :o) I too have a hard time hearing my son cry, but better a few tears now than a whole lot of trouble later. I agree with the other posts. He definitely knows that if he cries you'll give in. I believe it's one minute per year. So at 4 your child should be in time out no longer than 4 minutes. Stick to your guns. It's hard but you can do it.
Good luck!

Hi D.,
Your son is manipulating you. Do you think he is going to be happy about being punished? He SHOULD cry. Punishment isn't about being happy, it's about learning that there are consequences to your actions. Rational talking isn't for preschoolers who do not have the maturity to understand reason, it simply frustrates them. At 4, it's a little late to start instituting discipline, which is not the same thing as punishment. Your son needs to know what the rules are and what the consequences will be if he breaks the rules. If you want to be the parent, the authority, then you must act like one and I would do it now, while he is still a little boy, because it will not get any better later on. If he knows now that he can do whatever he wants and not be punished for it, heaven help you when he is 13. When he misbehaves, tell him what he did wrong, trot him over to the time out chair, set the timer and stick some ear plugs in your ears. Good luck.

The whole point of a time out is that it is supposed to take them away from the situation and be boring. Kids often cry because they don't like it- that's the whole point. DO NOT take them out of the corner for crying. This is just letting him learn that whining and crying will let him get his way. Make him stay in the corner for the same amount of minutes as his age in years (4 min. for a 4 year old), if he gets out, bring him right back and re-start the timer. Explain to him at the beginning of the time out and at the end of the time out, in simple terms, what he did wrong. Ask for an apology at the end of time out, give him a hug, then just move on. Kids need and crave discipline to give them a sense of structure in their lives. Don't feel bad for doing it, if you aren't consistant with him now, it will only get worse in the future.

Good Luck.

D.,
I know it is hard to stick with a punishment for your 4 yr old son, but you are really doing him a favor by doing so. When you give him a punishment and stick to it, you are giving him peace of mind of knowing that his parents are competent, in charge people, who know what they are doing and who will take care of him. When you let him call the shots, you are sending him the message that you are not confident, that you are 'winging it' and that HE actually is in control of the situation. Think how you would feel as a little boy to feel that your parents do not know what they are doing. He may not like the punishment, but he will like the feeling of having confidence in his parents.

As for the time outs, I used them with my three boys with some success. You absolutely must enforce the time out, stay there with him and use a timer that he can see so he knows with confidence how long he must stay there (we did one minute per year of age.).

I find, however, that a more effective way of dealing with children, boys in particular - I have no girls and cannot speak to them, is to figure out your child's "Currency" and use that to help your child learn consequences for actions.

The currency CONSTANTLY changes, so it does force you to be 'in touch' with your child - but that is a good thing. You need to figure out what your child is passionate about at the time (ie, Thomas trains, a video, legos, Vsmile, Nintendo when they are older, etc.) and threaten to remove the privilege of that currency for bad behavior.

This is ALSO hard to follow through with - it's no easier than the time outs, but it is also effective and is actually PREVENTATIVE of bad behavior.

For example, if we go out to dinner we can tell the boys, "If you do not mind your manners at dinner tonight, you will not be allowed to play Nintendo this weekend." If they start acting up during dinner we remind them that they stand to lose that privilege of video games on the weekend.

As I said the currency chances, especially with a 4 yr old., and you must follow through with the punishment - which can be hard also. We do not like to have them lose video games on the weekend because they love them so much! And we love them. But you are reinforcing that good behavior yields good things and bad behavior yields bad results. That is the way the world works, and that is what you must teach your son.

We have had times when there was no currency that we knew of or it had changed without our knowledge and resorted to time outs. They do not like the immediate removal of freedom, so time outs are effective too - you are taking away the privilege of freedom. It's immediate and effective as well, but I find not long lasting. 30 minutes after they are out of time out they may act up again.

Also remember a child that is typically well behaved may just be tired or hungry and not know how to verbalize that to you. If your son is acting up, try to think about if he might be tired or hungry or otherwise uncomfortable. Sometimes plain understanding and love is what they truly need.

I hope you find this useful. Please try to think of 'punishment' as a gift you are giving to your child because when he becomes an adult he will not be able to do anything he wants. He needs to live within the confines of society, but being raised to understand this will make it easier on him and second nature. He won't look at social 'rules' as something bad, but as something that allows all of us to live peacefully together with respect and harmony.

Good luck and congratulations on all your hard work thus far in raising your children!
V.

Your son needs to learn discipline. He will never be a happy well adjusted member of society if he hasnt learned. It is your duty as a parent to teach him limits and when he misbehaves he needs a consequence. Of course he will cry when in the corner, he isnt getting his own way. But if you are consistent you should notice his behavior improving and a simple waring or three count will be enough to make him listen most of the time. If you dont train him to listen now he will be in for a huge shock when he goes to school and probably hate the experience. If you cant stand his crying turn on your music real loud.

You need to set CLEAR rules and stick to it as all you are teaching him is that he can get his own way if he whines. Not going to go over well in school or the job market. You need to be consistent

I do agree with JC it is consistency. We were struggling with this too and I read the ask Supernanny and kind of go by that. I had to take him to the naughty place like 100 times, if he would of stayed there and cried, I would of been happy, but my child was just being so stubborn! But we discuss what he did wrong, take him to the naughty mat (any towel I put on the floor) and he has to think about it and be able to apologize when he is sincerely sorry. It has improved because he does not like being on the naughty mat at all! Now I usually just have to give the warning --- that is not nice because and if you misbehave again you are going to the naughty mat and he will say oh no no naughty mat! If he cries though I will usually comfort him, but keeping him on the mat and briefly let him hug and teach him how to calm down on his own. He usually seems to cry because he does feel bad. He needs to understand when I say NO that is what it means, for safety in most circumstances.

Hi,

Time outs will only work if you are consistant and willing to administer the time out and stick to it.

There is a book out called 1-2-3 Magic. I just bought it and have not yet fully read it but plan to try some of it's suggestions (like counting to 3 and once you get there, time out, not trying to reason verbally with a child since they don't understand, etc.). Take a look at it online and see if it's something you might like. Good luck!

Dear D.,
It sounds to me like your family and doctor is right. If your son does something bad and there are no consequences he'll continue to do it because he's not taught any better. Kids get away with what they are allowed to. You explain to him once or twice sternly why he can't do something and the third time you punish him. If he cries, so what? He already knows your weakness and all kids cry when they know they're in trouble. The choice is really yours, you can either raise a disciplined child who knows between right and wrong or you can raise a child who becomes so wild that no one wants to be around him. Children need structure, and if parents don't give it to them it will have a very negative affect on them as they get older.

Well, your a sucker. And your son knows it. He knows that all he has to do is cry and he gets his way. Crying isn't going to hurt him. So just let him sit in time out. In this whole situation he has the upper hand and he knows it. He's only in time out for 4 mins. Did you expect him to be happy to go there, of course he's going to cry. You need to ignore him. There is a book you can read call SOS help for parents. It tells you everything you need to know. But he knows exactly what he's doing and you're letting him get away with it. A child his age has no rational thought. So trying to rationalize with him doesn't work. You need to stick to your guns. Let him know what you say goes. Now is the time to change this pattern, because as he gets older it will get harder.

Please find yourself a good naturopath to test for allergies. This is very common for children who are allergic to something like dairy or wheat or food color. Perhaps he can't tolerate sugar. Some people sneeze, some have allergies in the brain.

It may not be a disciplinary problem but a real physical one. Never before in history have people eaten so much stuff called food that's genetically modified and toxic. Our bodies and brain can't deal with it.

I don't mean to sound silly, but have you watched Super Nanny? It's on Friday nights. She is wonderful. I have learned so much by watching her, it's all objective you don't have to do any of what she does, or you can do it all. I try very much to handle my children the way she handles them and my children are pretty well behaved most days.

It's hard when they are this little and learning boundaries and learning about life. I know you feel bad when he is in time out and he cries, but thats part of the learning process for him. It's what is in his best interest (some discipline), he needs to learn now that there are consequences for his actions, and after a while he will be tired of time outs and will start behaving better. If you can't put your foot down now, by the time you can it might be too late and he will already have learned to walk all over you.

No one ever said being a Mom would be easy right?

As difficult as it is, keep him in time out even if he cries to the point that you think someone is killing him. By giving in to him, you are reinforcing his negative behavior. Eventually, he'll get it and it'll be easier to disciplin once the routine and the follow through are established. It'll be tougher on you and your husband than on your son. Sometimes it takes an hour to get him to sit for a 3 min punishment but keep puting him back and when he finally sits for your time frame...praise him positively. Reinforce the good behavior of listening. Good Luck!

Hi D.,

At 4 kids have very little rational thought processes. They mimick it well, but are inconsistent with realizing it. At 4 boys get a huge testosterone boost and are often seen as out of control- because they are dealing with an internal rollercoaster they have no words for.
At 4 that ego is in full swing.

So, it is not a suprise that he isn't responding to "no."

A time out works only if it is swift- he disobeys, you say that is not okay and time out. For 4 minutes. Set a timer. If he cries it is for 2 primairy reasons, he is frustrated or angry that he has been sent away from the play space. OR, he didn't intend to disobey, and there is something else going on. That always bears some thought. Kids are not trying to disappoint us. They are not trying to be "bad". They are acting out, reacting, reaching. They are communicating, even if it is not what we want. But if they get our attention most when they say no, or act inappropriately, then in a wierd way we are reinforcing the negative behavior when we want is to make it stop.

Here are some tips I've used:

Try giving him a warning like, "please stop doing ____ by the count of three." or challenge him with " see if you can do this other thing by the count of 5."
If he is hitting or doing something physical, then the swift move to a timmed break will help.
Using words like, "it looks like you are frustrated, angry, really mad" helps- if he knows you are reading his feelings, you might get him to talk more, or at least calm down. Telling him things like , "using your words instead of your hands", can help.
Instead of punishing with a "time out", you can call it a "break". The punishment is that you are unhappy with him, and that he has to leave the playing space. So say "you need a break", set the timer to 4 minutes, and put him in a chair or on a mat.

You can use re-direction to great effect on kids this age and teach them at the same time that listening is beneficial. Try a rewards chart for each time he does respond on the first try- have him put a sticker on a chart. when he earns 5 in a row he gets an extra book at bed time, or a special bubble bath, or something along those lines.

I have 2 boys (4 & 2) and find those approaches work so much better than butting heads or spending much time talking it out.
When i get a straight "no", or totally inappropriate behavior, I use the break/ timer and then afterwards I ask "do you know why I gave you a break?" and see what comes out of him.

Good luck.
-M. (mom of 2 boys)

Yikes. You both give in and he knows it. For "punishment" to work it has to be unpleasant enough to deter the behavior again. Your son has figured-out that if he cries you will not hold him to the punishment which does not bode well for him or your in a few years.

I hate to say that your family and doc are correct, but on some level they are. If your family were seeing me clinically we would have you on a behavior plan involving reinforcement for appropriate behaviors and stringent consequences for noncompliance.

The "rule of thumb" for using time out is 2 minutes for every year. For your son 8-10 minutes removed from the situation followed by a discussion of expectations would be appropriate. If that does not work, take away all of his "stuff" and have him earn it back one "good day" at a time.

None of this will work if you and your husband cave! Good luck!

my husband and i use a time out chair aka "the naughty chair" for our 2 1/2 yr old son. We got it 6 months ago. It hasn't been easy and it sometimes it still isn't but consistency is the key factor. We put him in it for 2 minutes (based on his age) and then ask him what he did wrong so he understands. Then we ask him to say he's sorry to each of us - mommy, daddy, infant sister and give each of us a hug and kiss. Even though he still does what seems like the same things wrong over and over, he does't seem to do them as much.

Hi D.~

By not keeping him in the corner, you are telling him, basically, that you will not discipline him in any way, shape, or form. The reality is this: you are constantly teaching your children with every single word you speak, every move you make, every act you do and every reaction you have. Not many people understand this, but every single move made by Mom or Dad teaches the child and ultimately helps form their future behavior. My ex called me names therefore, my children did, too. My ex never did anything remotely related to housework and so my son, when he was 8, told me he had no reason to learn to cook or clean because that would be his wife's job and if he didn't marry, he'd live with me so I'd do it for him. As I said, he was 8 years old at the time, his father and I were divorced and his father moved back into his mother's house and has told the courts he has no plans to move. My ex husband will be 41 this year.
Do yourself and your son a huge favor and put him in the corner, put cotton in your ears so you don't hear him crying and let him know, after the punishment is over, you still love him but bad behavior will not be tolerated any longer. Also, 1 minute for every year he is old and keep a timer available so he knows when punishment is over.
Good luck to you and your son.
J.~