Lies and Stealing

I have a friend going through similar issues with her stepkids. They have stolen just baout everything under the sun from her kids to take back to their mothers home. Her DH couldnt believe his kids were that mean and bad so she video taped them. To this day she still threatens with a video and it is the only thing that works. I know its drastic but she was at her wits end too.

The one consistent thing in this and your other Q's with your sons behaviors are your expectations. They aren't age appropriate.

You're assigning adult motives to very small children, and young children. And adult consequences.

While, yes, most 6 & 8yos know to ask (and do it MOST of the time), it's a 10,000 step process of repetition over years and years. Not something you tell a 3yo once and then punish them for the next 5 years with spankings and their things being taken and being sent away for the weekend. OF COURSE they're going to sneak stuff. They would, anyway, as kids push boundaries... But when they've been taught they're bad and unwanted out of years of unrealistic expectations that is going to take a WHILE (6mo-2years) of age appropriate expectations to undo.

Here's a real-world textbook example one of my psych profs uses in her developmental psych class every year:

Dad and daughter were seeing her for regular counseling (court ordered ). One afternoon dad come dragging in his 6yo by the arm half shouting "She's trying to make me lose my job!!!"

No.

She's 6. What she WANTED was dad to stay home and play with her, so was begging, then moving slow, then throwing a tantrum, then huge fight between dad and daughter.

His expectations were off.

Should he have stated home from work and played? NO.
Was she 'trying to make dad be late so he'd lose his job'? Nope.

Totally normal 6yo want & behavior trying to get that want. But dad was placing adult motivations and reasonings behind a totally normal kid thing to do.

Dad tried to 'prove' he was right by asking 6yo if she wanted dad to lose his job, and she said yes. Why??? Because she's 6. To her mind, a job is where daddy goes when he's not with her, lose the job, he'd be with her. But can she make the logical reasoning to say that If I throw a tantrum, it will make addy lose his job so hell stay home"? Nope. She just had a want. She wanted dad to stay home. Then she had a second want; When dad gave her a great choice just then in the office, she absolutely agreed... Totally unable to link what would happen financially and career climbing if dad list his job.

Because she's a child.

Infants have needs.
Children have needs and wants
Adults have needs, wants, and AGENDAS.

Your kids have wants. Oooooh iPod. I'd like to ______. Pick up the iPod, go do ____ with it. Heck... even with teens and ADULTS you'll often see an item in someone's hand as they shout over their shoulder's "Hey, so-and-so can I use your....?"

And either a want or a need "Mmmm. Yogurt. Hungry." or "Mmmm. Yogurt. Yum."

Assigning an agenda to it "stealing" is apples and oranges. Or heck, apples and footballs.

IMPULSE CONTROL is what's lacking here... on their part.
Again. TOTALLY AGE APPROPRIATE for there to be some poor impulse control in elementary aged kids. AKA knowing better, and doing it anyway. While expectations are off on your part.

Along with the impulse control, are also some learned "asking before using something that doesn't belong to you" which takes ages and ages and ages. ESPECIALLY because you're not talking stealing from kids at school or neighbors and hiding it... but using something in their own home without permission. (NORMAL). Both kids and adults, if it's in the space they live in or work in tend to assign ownership to everything in it. EX) The copier at work, the towels at a hotel, heck, even the parking spots on the public street. If it's always around, there's an automatic possiveness about things that both kids and adults have. AKA iPod is in their home, therefore it's partially theirs. ((Only because they're older. As toddlers it WOULD have been "theirs" in their minds. See below for Toddler Property Laws))

It takes years and years of repetition and age appropriate expectations and guiding for there to be even the pause before using something that belongs to someone else. Just for Fun... here's that ownership thing I was mentioning earlier at an earlier milestone.

Property Law As Viewed By A Toddler

1. If I like it, it's mine.
2. If it's in my hand, it's mine.
3. If I can take it from you, it's mine.
4. If I had it a little while ago, it's mine.
5. If it's mine, it must never appear to be yours in any way.
6. If I'm doing or building something, all the pieces are mine.
7. If it looks like it's mine, it's mine.
8. If I saw it first, it's mine.
9. If I can see it, it's mine.
10. If I think it's mine, it's mine.
11. If I want it, it's mine.
12. If I "need it, it's mine
(yes, I know the difference between "want" and "need"!).
13. If I say it's mine, it's mine.
14. If you don't stop me from playing with it, it's mine.
15. If you tell me I can play with it, it's mine.
16. If it will upset me too much when you take it away from me, it's mine.
17. If I (think I) can play with it better than you can, it's mine.
18. If I play with it long enough, it's mine.
19. If you are playing with something and you put it down, it's mine.
20. If it's broken, it's yours (no wait, all the pieces are mine).

Your kids have moved beyond "mine" into knowing it's not theirs and wanting to use it. That's developmentally normal. The polite way to handle that, and the impulse control surrounding stopping and doing the polite thing? That takes awhile.

I'd really, really recommend family counseling with a developmental psychologist for you and your sons. (psych branches are as different as medical branches... you don't want a dermatologist doing heart surgery). Specifically a developmental psychologist to help you recraft your expectations and reshape the way you think about and act towards your kids when they're doing something totally normal that needs correcting.

What do they do with the items? Unless they're giving them away, selling them, hiding them from you I would not call it stealing. They are using things without your permission. That is not stealing at their ages.

I suggest you have some firm boundaries around them asking you before they take things. Insist that they ask first. Have a consequence if they don't obey.

If you know they peed on the floor then don't ask them if they did so that they have the opportunity to lie. Tell them you know they did such and such and the consequence is such and such.

I suggest that when you call them thieves and liars you're setting them up for more misbehavior. Look at their actions as normal ones for children who haven't yet learned how to follow the rules. Tell them very specifically what the rules are and have a related consequence. For peeing on the floor they clean it up. For taking your ipod, take away something that is important to them. Be firm and consistent.

Put the candy up so that they can't get it. Put your ipod up out of their way. Why can't they eat yogurt without asking you? It's a healthy food. They need some independence.

Find ways to praise them. Focus on what they do right instead of looking for ways in which they lie. Don't ask them what happened if you already know. Say, I see that you peed on the floor. Here is a rag with which to clean it up. Then good job cleaning it up.

Where is my ipod instead of you stole my ipod. Bring it to me now. When they bring it remind them that they aren't to touch the ipod. Praise them for bringing it to you. Keep your attitude calm and upbeat. Tell them if they continue to play with your ipod without permission you'll have to take away toys until they learn to leave the ipod alone.

Do this consistently. Give the same discipline for the same misbehavior. It takes time and consistency for kids to learn.

Dear T.,

I'm so sorry you are having problems with your sons. To be honest, I can't tell if they are allowed too much leeway at your brother's/friend's place or not, from what you've said. You haven't mentioned if they steal there.

There's a big difference in an ipod and food. They live with you and it is their home too. It should not be considered stealing, taking food from their own house. However, they should have been taught from little on up to ask for it.

Boys have growing appetites. Denying that isn't healthy for them unless they are actually fat.

I would highly recommend that you not buy anything that you sincerely don't want them to eat. Candy? Don't buy it. Soda? Don't buy it. Have on hand healthy choices.

Do they get enough during the day? If they are getting into the food at night, perhaps they don't get enough during the day and they are making up for it at night.

I have to say that I think you've started a bad precedent by calling it stealing when they get into their frig or cupboard to get food. You make them feel that they aren't really part of the family. Whether you actually can manage your two boys and their behavior or not isn't apparent here - my eyes popped when you said that your older son rips his clothes up when he doesn't get what he wants. Is that only with you or also with his caregivers? Peeing on the floor? That is out of control. Kicking the dog? You need desperately to get rid of the dog.

You need someone to help you get a hold of their behavior. Are they actually being watched by their caregivers, or are they just allowed to be there? Do they have schedules? Do they do this stuff at their caregivers' houses?

The boys need discipline. They have no respect for your belongings and haven't learned to have empathy or caring for a living creature. (That's kind of scary about kicking the dog. Why on earth do you have a dog in the home when your kids are mistreating it?) By discipline, I don't mean spanking.

Don't ASK who peed in the floor. You know that you didn't! It was one of them. BOTH get the same punishment (like the army - one person does something against the rules, all pay the price.) Make them both clean it up. Stand there until it's done. If your older son starts a tantrum, send him in his room and make him stay there until the tantrum's done, and then make him come out again and start cleaning it with his brother again. Repeat until it's clean without him having a tantrum. If both boys have the same consequence, the one NOT peeing will get mad at the one who is, and tell him to straighten up. In addition to having to clean it, they lose that day's worth of video games. Period.

For other non-food infractions, you take a favorite toy away and don't give it back until they have had a day of good behavior. It goes in storage somewhere, where they don't have access. That could mean that they lose 10 toys in one day, T.. Then they have to earn them back.

I would leave your ipod at work, if I were you, or hidden in the car. No more ipod at their disposal because they wouldn't ask for it first. When they ask why there isn't "x" in the frig, tell them you won't buy it until they start asking for food instead of just getting into the frig or cupboard. Stop calling this stealing. They aren't stealing from their own frig. If you don't want them to eat it, don't buy it.

You need professional help regarding your son's tantrums and clothes ripping, I have to say. I will stop short of telling you not to buy new clothes for him - he seems to have emotional problems - he certainly lacks empathy in kicking the dog. I really think you should talk to your ped and fess up that you having these problems with them. I know that with working full time, it's hard to take him to someone, but you really need to find counseling to figure out what to do about this. When school starts, you certainly need to go talk to the school counselor and ask her to work with him.

Sit down with your boyfriend and talk all this through. Show him these responses if you want to. You two need to be on the same page. No yelling at the kids. No hitting/spanking them (I have no idea that you are, but if you are, stop - with them kicking the dog, you shouldn't be spanking). You two need to find a home for the dog ASAP, and then start finding ways of talking about empathy and what it means, and using examples as often as you can. SHOWING empathy is very important.

I wish you much luck - you really need to get these kids turned around, especially the older one, before he ends up in juvenile detention.

Dawn

T., since 2008, you have had problems with your son and then now sons..

What is going on?

Tell us what their days are like and what a week is like in your family.

Do you work? Where is their father? Who cares for them all day?

What time do they wake up, take naps and go to sleep at night?

Do they go to day care?

Are they special needs? Are they healthy? Are they speaking correctly, potty trained? Can they read?

Then tell us about their chores? What responsibilities do they have?

What happens when they fight with each other?

Are they still whining and having tantrums? How do you handle this?

What do they like to do all day?

Why are they stealing? Do they ask permission to use your ipod and you tell them no?

Why are they hungry and get the food they are not supposed to?

We just need more info so we can make suggestions.

You sound exhausted and over whelmed. With such active children you will need to figure out how to keep them busy and active in productive ways.

Maybe you need to take some parenting classes.. Maybe you need to pick one way to discipline them and stick with it. Instead of reacting you need to be a proactive parent.. Stay ahead of them..

Do not keep candy in the house. Purchase extra yogurt and let them have it for a snack.. Make a place in the kitchen where they have some healthy snacks to choose from..

The ipod and your purse may need to be kept at the top of your closet.

Teach them that if your bedroom door is closed they are not allowed to go in there, without your permission..

Give us more information so we can help you.

Dear T.,

I would respectfully suggest, first of all, that you're underestimating their food needs. Growing boys eat a TON. If they're helping themselves to yogurt at night, then they're hungry. And hungry kids can't concentrate. They have poor impulse control. The first thing I'd try would just be giving them a lot more (healthy) food to eat.

In general, I think you can actually divide your sons' issues into easy problems (hungry kids helping themselves to food) and hard problems (your older boy kicking the dog, ripping his clothes, etc.). Easy problems a parent can solve, hard problems need a professional. Please talk to your doctor about your oldest son's rages. These sound like they could be biological in nature, and could even stem from something he was exposed to before he was born. A doctor can look into behavioral therapy, medication, several options.

Finally, I agree with everyone who's posted here, but a huge shout-out to Riley for posting Property Law as Viewed by a Toddler. That is SO right-on and had me laughing out loud at work.

Take a deep breath, T., and carry on. Some of this (hunger-related) you can solve yourself, and for the rest, there are doctors and professionals.

Sounds too complicated to figure out on mamapedia. Sign up for some parenting classes - you can ask your pediatrician to recommend some.

Don't let a 6 year old and 8 year old get the best of you (make you cry).

I don't really see taking food out of the fridge as "stealing." My kids want to eat ALL THE TIME - our solution was to make a drawer in the fridge with healthy food - grapes, apples, cheese sticks, yogurt, carrots, etc. and they could help themselves to that any time that they wanted - without asking. If they ruin their dinner eating carrot sticks - I can live with that.

I think stealing may be a harsh word for these activities - your kids may want to be independent and make their own choices (like what to eat) and may be curious and want to look at something they know they are not supposed to have. My 4 year old takes things all the time because he wants to look at them (i found my veggie steamer in his bed last week) but I dont label him a thief. I just tell him to ask me first and leave it at that.

A parenting book I read explained about positive intent. Acknowledge a positive intent for your child's behavior instead of a negative one. Your child took the ipod because he was curious (postive intent). Your child stole the ipod because he wanted it for himself (negative intent). You STILL address the behavior with an explanation or a consequence but you look at attribute positive intentions to their action. The way you view your child (curious? selfish?) helps them define who they are.

I'd look into parenting classes. I dont see it as a stigma or weakness to try to be the best parent you can be by going to classes.

it sounds as if they don't have a clue what the boundaries are, and you don't either. just trying to read your questions is an exercise in frustration. you're all over the map. i'm guessing home life is the same way.
you really really really need to take some parenting classes, hon. it sounds as if you care deeply about your children and would like to parent them appropriately but i don't even know where to start with this. there's no consistency anywhere. how can your kids feel safe if they don't know where the lines are drawn?
for the sake of your children, go out today and find a counselor who can help you work through the state of helpless anarchy you've allowed to take over your life.
khairete
S.

I cannot imagine calling my child eating....stealing.

Kids eat a lot, at multiple times each day. Snacks...in between the snacks!

As for the Ipod, do you allow them to touch anything of yours? Do they have any personal freedom within your home?

I realize you're a young mom. My vote is for parenting classes, counseling for the family, & behavioral boundaries that are reasonable. No child should be accused of stealing food in his own home.

I think you might need some help, with parenting classes, a mommy group, etc. What you describe in this post isn't stealing - they are eating THEIR OWN FAMILY's FOOD. They are using things that you don't want them to, but that isn't stealing. If you don't want them to eat candy, don't have it in the house. They are growing boys and may actually be more hungry than you think they are. It seems like you are overwhelmed and looking at them as bad, so even if they aren't all the way bad, you're stuck there.

EDIT: Mira and Sue H offer excellent suggestions. Take care!

If your oldest is ripping his clothes, let him know he will not get new ones for intentionally damaging them. And follow through with it so he knows you mean business.

If they are more angry than normal, look into counseling for them. Peeing on the floor and kicking the dog aren't normal behaviors. You need to find out what's going on.

Check out loveandlogic.com and see if there are facilitators in your area. It may help.

Obviously you are a mother who cares for her children if you weren’t you wouldn’t be here asking for ideas to help you with their misbehaviors. Maybe you need to go old school on these children before the police end up knocking at your door.
If your oldest insist on tearing his clothes, make him wear them torn, DON’T get him new clothes until he learns that tearing his clothing is unacceptable. Personally, if mine threw tantrums like that and there was no medical reason as to why, I would have to WHOOP his little butt.
I wouldn’t consider eating yogurt at night stealing, don’t you ever get hungry at night?
You said “Every Monday during summer break they get to go to a movie, they get to play their video games and play outside, they have crafts they can make( volcanos), they also get to have friends over and play” If they can’t act appropriately don’t let them do these fun things on Mondays, or any days for that matter, make then earn fun time.
How do you know for sure it is the kids taking things? Have they given the items back that they have taken.
Someone else suggested parenting classes, that may be a good idea, at this point what could it hurt??

Hope you find some of the answers you are looking for and can change your childrens’ behavior. Keep in mind if this has always been their way, it will not change overnight

I am having so of the same issues with my 7 yr old... and he is teaching his brothers 2 & 5 yrs old his bad habits. I just got recommended to a program ran through Akron Children's Hospital called the Triple P... it is a possitive parenting program. I'm not sure if it works yet, but talk to the kids doctor if you think it might help... right now I am willing to try anything - so I am. Good luck & stay strong... I'm really hoping we can nip it in the butt soon & that you can too.

Have you heard of the program Love and Logic. They have written many books about parenting and behavior. You can usually find them in a library. I'd check some of those out and try their techniques. I've seen some great results from people who try them!

Stealing and lying are signs of soething else going on. Stealing indicates that the child is trying to fill up something that he/she doesn't have.

Possibly they may need more structure at home and while you are at work to help them feel more safe and secure. It seems as if they have not been taught shown or grasp the concept of boundaries. It takes a lot of work on the parents part and lots of consistency (not now on 1 day and Ok on another, or in places---ok at Babysitter but not at home type of scenerios.)

Why not speak with the sitter and set up a secure plan so that all on the same plane and the kids get the same messages!

PS. their constant hunger is not or food!