Punish or Not to Punish?

This is just like the Ipad post from a couple days ago. Kids should respect their parents rules & wishes, no matter what anyone else says. An 11 year old is more than capable of being responsible for herself & knowing what she did was wrong. I would punish.

A grown up who has a role in her life that has "authority" attached to her told her to do something and she did it.

I do agree daughter knew better, but so did aunt. I think a small punishment is in order. Not for a week unless that is the normal time frame for something serious. This was not serious. She should learn a lesson but I would not do more than no candy or sweets for a few days. Then I'd make something she really likes and make her consequences even more effective.

Love and logic would say if there is no dessert served that she doesn't get then it's not really a consequence.

So a person of authority in her life told her to hide it but you want to punish your daughter?

I think you need to let it go.

Your sister knows your feelings on this and she was the one responsible.

I don't consider myself an abnormal parent yet I let my kids have treats from family including big bags of candy.

Okay or you can listen to a good chunk of the answers that say punish and teach her to hide the candy better next time. You do realize that is what she will do?

I'm in agreement with your husband. I think you could take this opportunity to discuss with your daughter the concept of independent thinking, and how she SHOULD have handled this. But, she was told something by an ADULT that she trusts and loves, like your husband said, and so I do not think this is a punishable offense.

Our 12yr old son has been doing some things that he KNOWS he isn't supposed to do, but he says "well ____ did it" or "grandpa let me". And to that we have said, YOU know better so guess who gets in trouble... YOU. Regardless of who the adult/friend/relative is that approves. If it's something they know is wrong and they still do it, then they are punished.
As for your daughter, maybe chalk it up as an educational moment. And make it crystal clear from this point forward. Pick your battles... :)

I love the wonderful processes defined in How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk, by Faber and Mazlish. It's possible to empower children to make good choices for themselves, learn problem-solving skills, improve self-respect AND respect of others, all while nurturing the bond between parent and child.

We all hope our children will achieve the ability to think things through and make good, safe and healthy decisions for themselves. My own experience, and the advice of many child-development professionals, is that classical punishment is not likely get a child there; it leaves authority and consequences in the hands of parents or more powerful others.

What worked very well for my daughter, and is now working with my grandson, is to leave as much choice within their reach as possible. And let them experience as many consequences, both good and bad, as possible.

They will make mistakes (even adults do, right?). Mistakes are among the most important experiences in life, contributing toward learning self-management skills. My approach is to leave enough room to make small mistakes, a kind of learn-as-you-go approach. Kids learn by direct experience where the limits are, and what they need to do to be safe.

Punishment is mainly, as I get it, an "attention-getter." The point is to reinforce the importance of standing rules, or remind a child that they exist. Since this was apparently a "new" situation, what's most needed here is a discussion that your daughter gets to participate in. If you punish for a new rule that you choose AFTER a bad choice, that's like changing the rules after the game starts. Nobody considers that fair.

Of course, it's exasperating for parents that there's no way to anticipate every "exception" or unusual situation that might occur. Of course, your daughter "knew" cognitively that her choice was contrary to household rules, but emotionally, I'll bet relatively few pre-teens would have fessed up in that situation. They don't want to get sweet auntie in trouble, or give up the chance to eat candy at will.

Talk about complications! Put yourself in her shoes, and notice how confusing, and potentially delicious, that would be. And even if she turned the bag of candy over to you in the beginning, what would she say that wouldn't get her aunt in trouble? This woman who's on her side, at least on a sentimental level.

If you ask her WHY it's important not to keep secrets from parents, I'll bet she can actually give you an impressive list of reasons. She's heard your coaching for her whole life. Even if she seems to ignore you or roll her eyes when you speak up, she does that BECAUSE she's heard it all so many times.

But she may not have heard all the angles. the most important consideration as she matures into a young woman who will want increasing independence, is that she will really want and need your trust in her. And you might help her think through various situations, like what if you're with friends at the mall who decide to shoplift, or someone trying to convince you to try drugs or alcohol. (Although my observation/experience is that those situations are much clearer, and therefore much easier to make a good choice.)

By the way, I think cleaning her room is a logical consequence. But at 11, a top-to-bottom cleaning is above and beyond logical. She should thoroughly clean out, vacuum, and wipe down the area where she hid her booty.

You are right to want a consequence for this. Your daughter is 11 (I have an 11-year-old girl too) and she is more than old enough to know perfectly well that she was doing something wrong (and getting away with it, hooray--until mom found out). She should have known better than to do it, and "my aunt told me so" is a very lame excuse and she knows that too. Her age is a big factor here.

Have you had a (calm, non-judgmental at this point) talk with her along the lines of exactly what you wrote in your post?

"I want you to think for yourself and make smart choices, not choices that end up with a hurting stomach and ants in your room.

"What if your friends tell you to do something you KNOW you should not do and are not allowed by us to do? Is it OK then to say, 'But my friend said to do it?' What if your aunt, or anyone else you know and trust like a teacher (coach, scout leader, whatever) says to do something you know is something you are not allowed to do? Does that make it OK, because it's an adult?" (Let her respond. Seriously, make it a conversation and not a lecture. She must respond even if it's a surly "No.")

Tell her you trusted her to make her own, good judgements and this time she did not, so she needs to have a consequence, so that next time she will stop, pause and remember: "My parents are trusting me to stop right here and think for myself. Last time there was a consequence. I do not want that consequence again, AND I want my parents' trust, so I will listen to my gut and not do this thing I'm being told/tempted/led to do."

Tell her she needs to earn back some trust in her ability to make good judgements. Tell her too that though this is NOT a huge thing -- she did not take drugs, start smoking, text 1,000 times behind your back -- it still is an indicator to you as a parent about how she WILL handle bigger and more serious things next time.

Then drop it! Give her the consequence and drop any more talk or it will be overdone. If she complains about her consequence over time as she goes without sweets etc., nicely cut off discussion: "I'm sorry you don't like this consequence but we have to see it out to the end."

The consequence should fit the transgression so no sweets for a month (a week won't really affect her), plus perhaps something like an extra somewhat unpleasant chore (a cleaning chore to tie in clearly with the idea of "it would have drawn ants"?). For a month, I think, but that's me.

Again, she needs to understand that this is not really about candy. It's about her judgement and the fact that while this is not a huge deal in itself, it was a test of her ability to judge and stick to family rules outside the family, and she needs to make a better choice the next time, especially since the next time could be something more serious than candy.

I have a 10 year-old daughter. First of all, she would not have hid the candy because candy in our house is no big deal. We have it in our house and eat it a little at a time and whenever we want, because neither of us wants too much candy or wants it too often.

If she had done this, I would ask her now what she thinks of eating too much candy, remind her of the stomachaches and lead her to the conclusion that a little is better than a lot. I would probably tease her about not wanting to share it with me. And remind her about our ant problem and have her help me check her room for any any ant problem and clean if necessary.

That would be the end of it. There are no punishments or rewards tied to food in our house. As a survivor of a long-lasting eating disorder, that is an unbreakable rule in my house. If you want your daughter to start hiding candy better and more often, go ahead and punish her for this.

I agree with your husband - she was led astray by someone she loves and trusts. :)

I'm sure you have already given her a stern talking to and expressed your displeasure. That's enough.

Now just make sure your SIL will not be encouraging her to sneak around and do drugs or have sex and things will all work out ok... :)

I would probably say no candy/dessert for a week. I think this will give her something to think about if she's put in another situation like this. Let her know that in the future the consequence will be far greater. I don't even think it's that harsh...might be to her.

She was lead astray...but I also think she needs to have a "reminder" that others don't always know best.

I am firm believer in the consequence should match the "crime"....our daughter last winter said she had socks on and didn't. She thought the faux fur in her boot would be enough. When I found no socks...she had to wear her tennis shoes only for two days. She didn't go without socks (until the summer).

Sometimes things happen,,, sigh.
If it were me I would not punish this time, but instead explain very clearly that in the future the rule is X, regardless of what Auntie or anyone else says and lay out what the punishment for breaking the rule will be.

Yea, my mom was a food policewoman.

No junk, no sodas, no candy, no sweet cereals etc.. Except every once in a while.

I LOVED that stuff. But we were just always told, no or you can have it every once in a while. In my mind it made it so tempting to sneak since we felt like we hardly ever got these treats.

The way my mother would have handled this would be to tell me, she thought I knew how she felt about candy and about hiding things from her. She would say, her feelings were hurt and she probably would have let me have a bit of it if I had just been honest. But since I hid, it from her, she knew I knew this was not a good choice.

I would be devastated. I hated disappointing my mother, never want to hurt her feelings.. etc.. Yep she works that guilt trip.

My mother made us a deal a long time ago. "If you will tell me the truth, I will not be mad, I might be disappointed or my feelings may be hurt, but I will not be mad. IF you do lie to me (the hiding and eating the candy was a lie), it will take me a long time for you to get me to trust you again.

My mother has kept this promise to this day. As long as we tell her the truth, she does not get mad at us.

SIL should not have said to hide this from you. but since she did, it does make it hard to punish your daughter, instead I would tell her you are disappointed that she followed this direction.

I'd not punish, but I'd remind your DD why what she did is against your rules, and ask her to remember the next time someone buys her a special treat, to not hide it from you. Tell her that you wish Auntie had given you the bag of candy for you to hold on to in the kitchen where food belongs and you would allow her a reasonable amount a little at a time so she would not get sick or ruin her appetite, but still get to enjoy her "treat" Treats are fine in moderation. Hiding things from parents and food in the bedrooms is not.

But I agree with your husband it's best to not make a huge deal of it, especially if auntie is a good person and special adult in your DD's life. I'd be making a mental note to be more vigilant every time in the future about what she comes home with from "aunties house" or from their outings together since you know auntie revels in this type of "bonding"

I would make her give up desserts and sweets too, but I would go longer - like 2 weeks or a month. None of this "auntie said it was ok and led me down the dark path of candy overload!" I can see where she may be tempted to see what she can get away with, but she also needs to learn that trying to sneak stuff from your parents doesn't pay. She needs to know better!

If it were me, I'd be upset too. Your SIL made a pretty bad move in trying to 'buddy up' with your daughter.

That said, I'm not sure that revoking candy/sweets is really addressing the problem. The problem is that when your daughter was confronted with someone she admired provoking her to be dishonest, she was dishonest.

If it were me, I would focus on the dishonesty, and explain to her that privileges in life require good judgment. Being able to go out unsupervised with friends requires that you trust her. If it were me, I'd discuss the after-effects of her decision and that, in the future, she will need to show that she can be trustworthy and respectful of your rules. I'd give a stern warning for now and let her know that the next time something like this happens, you and your husband will be reconsidering her social privileges. If she wants you to trust her when she's away from you--even at friends' houses, she needs be consistently making responsible choices.

Sometimes, if you make this more of a learning experience and less punitive, the kids can actually *hear* us and use it as an opportunity for growth. I'm sure it is all stuff that she knows, but I can also imagine how difficult it would be for her to say 'no' to an favorite aunt who was being extremely inappropriate, given the circumstances. Auntie put her in the position of disobeying you or ratting out auntie-- this is worrisome.

And if it were my husband, we'd be having another chat about sis. It's all fine and dandy because it's candy, but if she is showing zero respect for your house rules, and more or less pressuring your daughter to do something your daughter had reservations about-- that's very disturbing. What happens a few more years down the line-- does auntie offer your daughter alcohol because it'll be 'their little secret'? I don't know your SIL and if this sort of immaturity is typical, but she seems more concerned with being Cool Auntie than she does about putting your daughter in the position of lying to her parents.

I would just make sure she knows next time shes in big trouble and you dont care who told her to do it. Then let it go. Good for her for a least telling her aunt she wasnt allowed, lol.

Of course there should be a punishment. She is still old enough to *know* better, no matter what her Aunt told her. And it doesn't sound like you are a family that NEVER lets kids have candy, so like you said, had she been honest, ran in the door and said, "Look what Auntie bought me!", I'm sure you would have let her have some within reason. So I would explain to her that even tho Aunt said she should hide it, she should have known that was not a good choice to make, so therefore she can't have any sweets for a week. I would also explain that its a TRUST issue. She is a tween and will soon be having to make decisions on her own when she's around friends. If they tell her to do something, is she going to? You need to explain that to her too. That's my opinion on what I would do. Good luck!

I agree with you, she should have a consequence, no sweets at all for however long you decide is an appropriate one. One of my granddaughters is almost 11, she would be expected to know to do the right thing, too. She's facing that with having braces on and has done well...so far.

The problem i would have if my husband wanted to brush this under the rug is what if someone else she "loves and trusts" said she could do something she wasn't supposed to do...if she doesn't learn she's expected to do the right thing now, what assurance would you and he have that she wouldn't be "led" later? Would he then be so willing to excuse something because she loved and trusted the person who led her astray? Remind him there are some really big things with major consequences she could be "led" to do in the future that he may have a hard time dismissing.

Parenting is an ever-evolving learning experience, for us and our kids. Sometimes we get an opportunity that will serve us all well in the future, a win-win for everyone!

Hum...don't really get the PUNISH PUNISH over candy. I agree with your husband she was put in a bad position by her aunt. Sounds like more of an opportunity for a learning experience than punishment. Why not sit her down and explain to her that auntie should not have suggested that you hide candy that is dishonest. Ask her what would have been the better choice even if auntie was suggesting she hide it. Teach her how to handle the situation instead of punish her in a sticky situation. You might just be teaching her to hide things better instead of doing the right thing.

Well... yes your daughter "knew better" and in fact told her auntie that she shouldn't do what auntie was suggesting. Except that a trusted adult, her beloved auntie, told her to do it anyway and implied that it would be all right.

I wouldn't "punish" her but discipline her. The approach you put in your SWH is fine, except I WOULD skip candy for a week. I wouldn't go quite so gung ho on making her clean her room out top to bottom. Instead, I would have her tidy the room, vacuum, and whatever candy/treats she would be choosing for herself the next week or two should go to the food pantry in town.

I would also go over the effects of binge eating on junk food with her so that she understands why she had a stomach ache. Definitely talk with her about how when other adults tell her to keep secrets from Mom and Dad, that's almost always a sign that it's the wrong choice (unless it's something like Grandma having her pick out a gift for Mom's birthday and she needs to keep that secret).

My kids, have an Aunty like that. *grin*
And their Aunty has done things like that.
BUT... (my kids are 5 & 9), I have always taught my kids that ME and Daddy, have the last say. We allow for a lot of variations, per the event/who is with them/what they are doing etc. But, my kids (I taught them to do this), will actually TELL their Aunty "Can I use your cell phone? I have to call Mommy to ask if that is okay...." And my kids DO call me, to ask me something if they are not sure, or per what their Aunty told them.
SO, because of that, Aunty, has also come to "respect" what my kids say or what I say, when they go out with her.
If my eldest, my 9 year old daughter, is not sure of something, and she can't get a hold of me... she makes a "wise" decision for her and her brother.... using her own age related deduction. And I commend her for that... EVEN if, it was not what I would do. I do not punish her for eating candy with Aunty, because I know... she puts a lot of thought... into something. First. And knows what I would say or do.
BUT also... my kids KNOW they do not have to "hide" anything from me... that they did. And they don't. Because I taught them that, NO matter what they do or did, they can tell me. And we will discuss it. They know I don't off handedly, "punish" them... if I know, what their thought process was, about it. And I allow them... to tell me how they came to a certain decision etc.

Since my kids were Toddlers, I have always taught them the "totem pole" or "pecking order" of WHO, is the parent and WHO, can ultimately decide, something for them. So... as I said, my kids WILL SPEAK UP to their Aunty.... AND they will also call me on her cell phone, when they are with her to ask me something they are not sure about if they can do it or not. I trust, them.
Even if, with Aunty, they get a LOT of treats. I know their Aunty loves them, she does not make them "lie" to me... and I allow them to have a nice time with their Aunty. Even if that means having treats/sweets. My kids know how to not gorge on things. Or they will even offer me their treats... when they come home. And in any given social situation no matter who it is with... I know my kids... and know they will "discern" the situation to the best of their ability. They can think for themselves.... and can speak up, to other kids or adults. So I trust them to that extent. And if anything, we discuss things... and how other ways of handling it, also exists.

So in your case... I would not "punish" your daughter.... but rather, GIVE HER options, to what she could have done, instead.
For next time... she is with her Aunt.

I haven't read the other answers yet, or your SWH. I want to write about a particular thought I have first, because of personal experience, Mom.

My sister had a sweet tooth. My mom tried to get her to not eat sweets. She wanted her to be healthy, and there were rules in the house, etc. However, she would sneak down to the convenience store every time she had some money, and she'd buy candy. And she'd hide it. She was always hiding sweets. One time, she forgot that she had hidden a banana (must not have had any money) and it rotted (yuck!)

As you can imagine, she has had weight issues all her adult life.

The reason I tell you this is that you really need to tread carefully in regards to punishing for food related offenses. Your thought process about telling her not to do it, and her doing it anyway, are correct. However, this is about FOOD. If you aren't careful, punishing her for "food offenses" could cause eating disorders or problems with her weight later on in life.

Why don't you call your ped and talk to him or her about what happened, and ask advice? I think that would be your best bet.

Dawn

She's 11, so she knew what she was doing, AND her Aunt set a REALLY bad example. She does need some punishment - actually - the super cleaning is worse than the no sweets cause most kids HATE to clean. Your husband shouldn't be defending his sister, but don't attack her. If she doesn't have kids, she's not going to think too deeply about this stuff, especially if she's not the deepest thinker to start with. Just let her know the important rules you have for your kids to minimize future mishaps.

At first I read this thinking no no no no no don't punish...(and I'm a disciplinarian) but I was picturing my six-year-old, who I am SURE would not do it again if I explained how serious it was.....but an 11-year-old probably did know better than to sneak and eat that much. So that's tough. Still. If it's the first time something like that has happened, I think I'd just tell her how serious sneaking and eating all that candy was and how wrong her aunt was to have her sneak, and that I KNOW she knew better, and I'm very disappointed (in a caring way not a mad way). I'd also have her aunt explain that she was WRONG to do that in every way. Then I'd trust it wouldn't happen again and only worry about consequences if it did. And yeah, no sweets for a while too!

Sorry if this is reading too much into this, but the desire to eat that much candy (and the desire for the aunt to buy it for her) is a little disturbing. My kids are allowed to eat some candy, but they KNOW it is not healthy and that they shouldn't eat much and they are 6, 4 and 3. My son has gorged in the past (when no one was watching during a party) and gotten sick, etc. so even he knows and he has a sweet tooth. Sounds like in general, auntie and the household need to teach her (she's a mature young lady) a bit more about healthful eating so that she doesn't want to eat that much candy. But again, I wouldn't "punish" this.

Also, cleaning is never a favorite "consequence" to me, because it's something we all must do when we make a mess, whether it's an accident or whatever, it's not some big negative consequence. But in this case, sure, have her clean her room out with you as a logical necessity for storing the candy there. It goes with the lesson and needn't be angrily done.

My mom is a trouble enabler with my four daughters... I'm ALWAYS catching them doing minor offenses together that they know (especially the kids know) that I don't allow it. Like playing horsey on grandma's back, having candy right before bed (or any food for that matter), running in the house, etc... sometimes it is something that they know is wrong, but have never done it in grandma's presence before. My mom contributes to all these things ALL the time. It is always the same thing... my mom says "oh, it is my fault, I told them they could...." I ALWAYS say back: "I'm not mad at you, THEY know better because I have told them they can't!" ...and then the consequence ensues. Gosh, this happens too much. My mom lives a very short 15 minutes away. It can be very tiring sometimes... but I am grateful to have my mom close by also.

I also get that sort of excuse between my four girls "But, SHE said I could!!!" referring to one of their sisters. HA! REALLY? since when is SHE in charge?!? Daily occurrence.

Thing is, they know better... bottom line.

HI. I know I'm late on this and haven't read all your responses, so I may be repetitive. I think the cleaning of the room is an excellent response. You know that she realizes she did something against your rules and house rules. I would take it one step further, though. I would withhold dessert for an entire week from her. Just let her know that by eating all that candy, she basically ate all her desserts for the week.

I think you're handling it very well!

L.

Sorry I did not have time to read through the other responses, but I agree with you that the best course of action may be a natural consequence like cleaning her room. That also reinforces the reason for the rule of no food in your room. I would also be tempted to get the aunt to talk to her and let her know that what she told her to do was wrong. Your daughter may be a little resentful of her aunt for giving her bad "advice" and an apology and acknowledgement that what she recommended was wrong could go a long way in maintaining a good relationship between the two of them.