To Marry or Not to Marry....

Seems to me that if you really wanted to marry him, you wouldn't be so obsessed with the details of the how and the why. Couples therapy would probably be the optimal next step, not marriage.

weird.
you're having babies with this person, to whom you're not emotionally or mentally committed at all, but want to marry him, but only on 'your terms' which include a ridiculously antiquated notion of 'proposal.'
what do SIN and CHRISTIANITY have to do with it? if that were an issue for either one of you you would have discussed it a couple of babies ago.
and the fact that you've been having ongoing problems that have yet to be resolved?
red flags all over the place.
meh.
khairete
S.

I think you need some clarity. You want a specific type of proposal, but you're scared to be married. You are planning a wedding, including dates, but you are afraid you can't just get out of the relationship and walk away if you are married.

A few weeks ago, you posted that you are having a hard time standing and doing household chores, but have a boyfriend who doesn't understand that. But he wants to be married right this second. Now you post that you want a proposal and a ring, but you are taunting him with "if I refuse, what are you going to do?" You want things on your terms, he wants them on his, and there's no compromise or meeting of the minds.

You talked about sin and religion, but you already have one child and another on the way. So you're kind of shutting the barn door after the horse has escaped, aren't you? You seem to think that you can walk away with 2 kids with no legal issues because you aren't legally married - I'd consult a lawyer on that because I don't think that's even close to the truth. Your boyfriend would have legal rights to the kids and a legal obligation for child support.

I'm sure pregnancy hormones are at play here, but I don't think you two have a strong sense of who you are and what you want. You both have things that you want, and the other isn't aware or able to provide those (from household help washing dishes in your last post to types of proposals and weddings in this one.) so I think your issues are much more deeply rooted than these details.

I think you would both benefit enormously from some couples counseling to sort out your wishes, needs and priorities, and to have an objective person help you with the very distinct contradictions and illogical standards here.

My thoughts?
You both are acting like babies and have no business reproducing :-(

I think you need to take a big step backward and focus on the whole picture.

You are wanting him to do what's basically 'jumping through hoops' before you will accept his proposal, but I really think that's just an excuse for not making a decision more than anything else.

What bothers me more is how you describe him. "I know for the sake of SIN and Christianity, we should, and that is part of his reasoning, I am not as concerned about it as he or others might be. Not like he has been a very christian person in the first place." Sorry, but not an indication of love or a glowing review of the guy. I sounds like you have a lot of misgivings.

What also bothers me is that you feel that without marriage that you can 'just walk out with the kids'. Um, no, that is a fantasy. With divorce or a breakup of unwed parents with kids, there are still going to be custodial issues which will need to be addressed legally.

My 'not to be rude' question, and I mean this sincerely-- why are you having babies with a man you don't respect enough to want to marry? This is why I think you need to take a huge step back and get some counseling to see what you want-- what your vision is-- going forward, especially for your kids' sake, but for right now, neither of you should marry the other.

ETA: as the wife of a man who never 'properly proposed', I can tell you that his love shines through in his daily actions, not just one 'magic' moment. Marriage and weddings should not be the focus-- the focus should be on daily interactions.

I will have to fight a legal battle out of it and over the kids.

I hate to break it to you, but you are living together and have children.... I assume he is on the birth certificate?
If you break up now (or in the future) you will STILL have to "fight a legal battle out of it and over the kids". He has a right to be a father to his kids 50% of the time. Split. Right down the middle. So if you think the fact that you aren't married will eliminate that headache and hassle you are mistaken.

Also FWIW..... my daughter's dad proposed to me publicly, with fanfare, a diamond solitare and EIGHT DOZEN ROSES (one for each month we had been dating). He was the crappiest husband of them all.
My current husband looked at me while we were watching Glee one night with my daughter and mouthed the words "do you want to marry me?" and I mouthed back "yes".
He is a FANTASTIC husband and father and I will be with him forever, because we are deeply committed to working out our issues as they arise in a way that is healthy and emotionally mature.

I can't answer your question. what I suggest is that you get yourself a good counselor who can help you work through your own issues.

I understand you are hormonal and pregnant and are in a hot mess right now. I am trying to be understanding. I am not writing this to cut you down but to come real with you. You asked for our thoughts? Well, here are mine. You and I don't know each other. Take what you want or just skip it entirely because you probably will not like what I have to say. But, just know that my heart does reach out to you. You are in a very tough spot and it makes me sad. I know how good marriage can be and you have made some backward choices that now put you in a big hot mess.

I have been married 18 years, have 3 kids and we did NOT have sex with each other before marriage. My husband did get down on one knee and asked me to be his wife forever. He asked my mom and my oldest brother for my hand in marriage and had the wedding ring paid off before even proposing to me. I didn't pick out the ring..he did. I had no idea he was proposing...it was a surprise. It was a sweet, and tender moment.

I tell you this because this is where I am coming from as you read my response. I have seen family members and friends go about it different ways and then end up where you are. I feel for you. I know you feel stuck. I am very sorry. But as we get older, and have children it is not so much about us as an individual anymore. We have to make the best of the choices we have made and do what is best for the children as well.

The real problem? You have a fantasy in your mind that will never happen because the two of you did not make the sacrifices to create that marriage ideal. You both sound very immature and taunt each other about leaving if one refuses to get married soon. Huh? Marriage is a team effort..you don't just make decisions on your terms. You work together.

You want the prince down on one knee and formally ask for your hand in marriage, you want a big party wedding. You want the fairy tale. It ain't happening in your case.

Honey...you have two kids with a man you don't even know if you want to be married to?? You want to be able to walk away at any moment and not be tied to him?? You have gone about this all backwards. You just have to make the best decision of the bad situation you put yourselves in.

That is a horrible foundation for building a life together. You already have one foot in and one foot out and ready to run.

You have to come real. This is the life you have created and you need to make the best of it. I say forget the fantasy and make some hard decisions soon.

Get married, give your children a loving home and you both work your arses off to undo the mistakes (sins) of the past and provide a good life. It will not be easy. It will be even harder for the two of you because you both settled for less than what you could have had and now are stuck with each other.

The alternative is you continue to live with each other for awhile longer without marriage , then split after a while and then create more messy relationships and drag your kids through it, and maybe create more kids in other relationships. Then share kids back and forth through a visitation schedule and deal with new boyfriends and girlfriends raising your kids. Total mess for everyone.

Just make the decision NOW to get married. Go to the courthouse soon and make it legal.

A better wedding than your last? Honey..that is sooo ridiculous. Focus more on the married life together you will share and less about wedding reception. I would focus more on getting into some marriage counseling and less on the wedding reception.

Focus on how to make this mess better and how to make this relationship work. Not on how he should propose and planning the picture perfect wedding reception. Focus on vowing to be true to each other and make the best life you can with what you have created.

I'm afraid I don't follow ... sorry to be blunt, but I don't really get your point.

You want a wedding on your terms. But you have problems with this guy. Yet you are committed already because of children.

You are worried about divorce ...

Here's my advice - if you are worried about divorcing him, that's a sure sign it's not a good idea to marry him.

I know having kids complicates things further .... but I for one don't think marrying just for the sake that you already have children is a good idea.

People split amicably and remain responsible parents to their kids - and should you decide this guy is not for you (which ... you still might from the sounds of it) why marry him?

Better to put marriage on the back burner for now, sort out your issues with him, figure out what is best for you and your children, and then decide long term. Where are you right now? You say you've had problems ... start there.

Getting more committed legally will not solve anything. It never does.

It should be a union because you are better together, then apart.

Good luck :)

Your having his second child and you aren't sure if you want to get married? Is that right?

I'd go see couples therapist real quick.

I have 2 comments.
1) You are never going to walk away from this guy. You've already crossed that bridge. He is the father of your kids. You are going to have a relationship of some kind with him for the rest of your life.
2) Don't get married unless you are sure this is the person you want to see first thing in the morning for the rest of your life. If after 3 years, you are not sure of this, then you need to break up. Really, after 3 years and 2 babies, you already know everything you need to know about him. You know who he is already - he's not going to change. He is who he is. If you want someone sort-of like him, but who acts differently in certain situations - then you don't want him, you want someone else that you haven't found yet.

To me, this is a hot mess. You aren't sure you want to marry this guy, yet your pissed because he didn't "properly propose", you have kids. Good grief.

First, no more kids. Next, decide if this is the person you want to spend the rest of your life with. If not, split. However, if you think for a new York minute just because you aren't married there might not be a legal battle for the kids, you are sadly mistaken. Those are his kids just as much as yours, married or not.

I get the whole wedding as opposed to being married. Remember, you will be forever tied to him because of the kids, again, married or not.

Personally, you need to decide if you even want to be with this man much less marry this him.

ADD 2: My husband of 15 years didn't "officially" propose. We talked about getting married. Then we decided to get engagement rings one day. We BOTH got silver Celtic knot rings that cost less than an Iphone costs now. 15 years of marriage. It's not about the proposal, or the wedding, it's about the marriage. For the sake of your children, work out your issues and get your priorities straight.

ADD: What Suzanne and Diane B said. And CoMoMom.

ORIGINAL: What you both need to do, if you are worried about divorce, is get some relationship counseling NOW.

One important thing - assuming that the break up of a committed relationship is "less" impactful on people/children just because a marriage hasn't happened is a WRONG assumption. If things were to blow up out of marriage, it would still be a flat out mess for everyone, especially the kids. So don't use "I'm scared of divorce" as an excuse.

Having another party and wanting it to be "better than the last" is honestly, a minor priority. You should want the MARRIAGE to be better than the last.

Get relationship counseling. Focus on the IMPORTANT THINGS - the relationship and the kids.

*You're scared of marriage, but you're already in a long term relationship, with children, with a shared home. Your fear is not logical. In some states you'd be considered legally married after a period of time just by virtue of those three things.

*You're overly focused on what you imagine to be a 'proper' proposal. That is superficial and frivolous topic to use as an excuse for deflection. It is also used to control your boyfriend.

*You imagine that you can simply walk out of your relationship with your children's father. This is not true. You are forever linked, and you would still have legalities in regards to the kids.

*You're talking all about your terms and your wants, while scoffing at his. From what you say, it sounds like he's getting tired of this nonsense. As he should be because you're not behaving like a loving partner or a responsible mother.

It is clear that you're not in a healthy place. The two of you need some intensive couples counseling to work on whatever issues you've been having as a couple.

You need an individual therapist as well, because you have been actively sabotaging your current relationship. I'm not sure you can even see it right now, but you're a huge part of your own problems.

ETA: Please listen to Suzanne. Drop the fairy tale ideas now and you will be a lot happier. The joys of real life come in smaller packages (metaphorically speaking), and are usually unexpected.

My thoughts are that you are already committed to him -- you have two children with him. That is way more of a tie than being married. Why do you keep having children with someone you don't want to marry?

For the sake of your children, you should be married. Your kids are much more important than any wedding or silly disagreements the two of you are having.

Yes, a wedding is usually more exciting than the grueling process of waking up with the same person, day after day, for decades. Marriage can certainly be less than thrilling. But you have made children with this guy, who will (usually) thrive with a mommy and daddy, and will almost always be damaged in some way if you split up, no matter how nice you manage to keep it.

I think the two of you need marriage counseling, because I don't think he is the only person who is being immature in this relationship. I think if you are honest with yourself, you are immature as well.

As far as a knee and a ring go, have you made that very clear to him? "Honey, I want you to ask me down on your knee, with a ring." Sorry to say, but many/most men are kind of dense, and you will have to get used to telling him specifically what you want, because you will need to do that a lot. Men need things spelled out very clearly for them.

Get counseling. Both of you need it.

Your concerns may be justified and you probably shouldn't get married except for the fact that you will have two children with him. Not one who was an accident and you're trying to make the best of it. You decided to have ANOTHER child with him. Why? Too late for all this back and forth and confusion. Marry him and do your best to give a nice and stable home to your children. They deserve that. Not their fault you guys are doing this all backwards. Being married does make it harder to walk away but once you have children, that is a GOOD thing. Kids do better for the most part in a 2 parent household. You need to at least give it everything you've got and not walk away bc it's easier. You sound ridiculous you want to get married on your own terms. That would have made sense before you decided to have two children with him. Now it's just being immature.

Really? your rule is he has to drop to one knee?

You've both been there, done that. Hopefully you have both learned from your mistakes but I don't think you have.

If you have all these questions in your head about marrying him, why did you choose to have another baby with him? Is he good enough to be your children's dad but not your husband?

From reading your post, how old are you two? You are both rattling off rules and time limits to each other about what I want and "pushing" and making sure you get proposed to and marry on "your" terms.

You are both fighting battles here that in the end no one will win (because you each are determined to "win") unless you get some counseling and figure out how to communicate with each other so you BOTH get what you want and hopefully what you BOTH want is stability for the children you have.

You already talk about a custody battle and you are not even married. Are you purposely not getting married in order to have some sort of priority on custody? You are talking divorce before you marry...... think about that. If you go into the marriage believing it will fail, rest assured... it will.

Forget the "wedding" that is a nice party... MARRIAGE is a major vow not to be taken lightly.

Bravo!!! to Momma W.

You said everything I was thinking.

--
For the record, my husband and I discussed our future together (being married), cuddling one night. I had to ask him, "so does this mean we need to be ring shopping?" So we went shopping. He NEVER formally proposed to me, until the morning we were wed. And then it wasn't "formal"...it was, "by the way, Will you marry me?" with a big grin. No knee involved. And I was already wearing the ring. We've been married 18 years.

The fact that you are so hung up on such trivialities as HOW he proposes, when he already has done it, when you already have TWO CHILDREN makes my head explode. The fact that you are more concerned with having a big wedding, and a party (and it being better than the FIRST time around)... when you should be planning retirement and college funds for those babes... Ugh. I just... I don't have words for that level of immaturity, really.

The "wedding" is of no import. Go to the courthouse. It's just as valid. The MARRIAGE is what matters.
I guess I had to throw my own 2 cents in to MommaW's post... but I'll stop now. I'm probably just reiterating things.

You don't sound like you really want to get married.
I had a priest ask us once if we knew the difference between 'chaste' and 'chased'.
If you were going to worry about SIN, um, I hate to tell you this but as far as the church is concerned there should be NO SEX outside of marriage.
If you really fear this will end in divorce, then break up with him, stay away from men for several years so you find out who you are outside of a relationship and THEN start looking for someone who is compatible with you and a good father to your kids.

ETA: I Have to agree with Diane B on this one.

Original: Well, the "ideal dream" wedding plans have come and gone. Life is not a fairy tale it is real work. You found this out with your first marriage.

Sometimes life is not all about "me" it is about "us" and "we". There is such a thing as compromise. You want a wedding in the spring and he wants a wedding this year. How about an October special? You have heard the old saying about the best laid plans of mice and men go astray. I think this is one of those times.

You do have two children together and that should mean something to you. He must mean something or you wouldn't have gotten pregnant. You probably need some counseling as to why you feel the way you do about marriage.

As to the, "If I refuse, what ya gonna do, leave?" He could and possibly fight you for full custody. So be careful of what you speak.

I have other thoughts but I will keep them to myself.

the other S.

Yes--you sound excited about the wedding, not the marriage-- which is what's left after the wedding day. I think just the fact that you're being a stickler about a proper proposal illustrates that fact.
Plus if you were that sure you wanted to marry him you wouldn't be asking a bunch of strangers on the Internet for advice .
You don't detail what your problems have been in the past.
O. thing is for sure , you can't change a person.
Don't get married.
Stop making babies.
Good luck.

Forgive my bluntness but having children out of wedlock is always a bad idea and always ends up creating this kind of confusion, chaos and often creates a poor foundation in which to raise them. I agree you both need counseling at the very least. Put your childrens' needs before yours and figure out what is best for their security and solidity of a family foundation. These questions you're asking became moot the moment you conceived your first child with him.

You are both behaving rather immaturely.

You won't marry him unless he drops a knee and offers you a rock? You're making and raising kids together. Surely there is a better use for your money than a piece of bling that costs six months' salary.
My husband proposed to me on Christmas Eve. We were in the kitchen, doing holiday baking, and out of the blue, he said, "I really want to marry you." I said, "Okay." No fanfare, no sparkly rocks, just a meeting of hearts, minds, and souls. I have never been happier in my life than I am with him.

He asked, "Do you still want to marry me?" and you didn't know that was a proposal? Hint: Any question that contains the words "marry me" is a proposal.

You're afraid of a legal battle over the kids if you marry and divorce? Even if you simply break up and he moves out, there will still be legal issues with the kids because they are his kids too.

Sin, schmin. You've already made two babies together. If he was that worried about "sin," he would have kept it in his pants.

With two kids, unless you are very well off financially, a fancy wedding should not be a priority. Your wedding is one day, your marriage will be for a lot longer.
Our wedding cost us a little over $200.
Myhusband couldn't find his birth certificate or divorce decree, so we had to order certified copies from the state archives - that was $31 for both. The marriage license was $36.
We held it in our back yard, with the guest list limited to family and a few close friends. Holding it in our back yard meant that we didn't have to pay a fee for the use of a venue.
We used the patio chairs and pulled more chairs out of the house onto the patio to seat guests, and put food for the reception out on the dining table inside the house. No rental fees for tents, arches, chairs, or tables. So what if the seats didn't match.
Since I was a member of the church, the minister did not charge us for his services, but we gave him a thank you gift of $50 anyway.
His mom offered us the use of her and his late father's rings until we could afford the ones we wanted to order.
Friends and family offered to bring food and champagne and took pictures and video. One friend's daughter, who loves to bake, asked if she could make the wedding cake. It wasn't sixteen tiers with edible gold, paper lace, and seed pearls - just a regular cake decorated with butterflies and flowers.
We spent about $100 on beer, sodas, and snack food to supplement what other people were bringing.

It sounds to me like you just don't really want to get married, and are looking for reasons not to. The only reason you need is "I don't want to." If he would walk out on his kids because you won't marry him, good riddance.

Bottom line - do not say "I do" unless you mean it from the bottom of your soul. To marry when you aren't sure, whatever the reasons for your uncertainty, is not fair to you, to him, or to your children.

Grow up quickly! You already have one baby and another on the way. Take a trip to the courthouse and be done with it. According to the research, only 3% of unmarried couples stay together until their child is 16.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1244699/Only-3-co...

IF you want to provide stability for yourself and your children, get some counseling now and decide whether or not you want to marry the father of your children. IF so, then do it. A wedding can be done for less than $100 and it can still be meaningful. There is no need to make a statement about your relationship to your family and friends - you already did through your child. However, you can teach your children about your values and how to have a loving healthy relationship by committing to their father.

Your problem is not about a ring and a bended knee. Your problem is that you cannot or should not make this decision to marry until or unless you feel comfortable and secure in this relationship. So I suggest to you, as I suggest to everyone, to get some couples/premarital counseling. Work out the things you need to work out or find out that you need to split up. It sounds like you are both kind of testing the other to see if you're worthy and if you'll stay. A ring won't magically fix that.

I also think that if you are waiting on a certain type of proposal, and want a certain type of wedding that either you have some unrealistic fairytale expectations or you are holding that out as your reason to not get married instead of addressing the real issues you don't want to get married.

Don't get married right now. If you begin a marriage afraid that it will end in divorce, there's a very good chance it will - self fulfilling prophecy. Have you ever heard the saying, "Whether you think you can or not, you're right?" or "If you think you can, you can, and if you think you can't, you're right?" If you aren't sure the marriage will succeed, this is not the right time to marry.

Religion is not a good reason. I am a practicing Catholic. I see the benefit of waiting until you get married before living together or having children. (I disagree that it's a sin. Rather, I see the wisdom of having a solid, secure relationship before introducing kids.) But that doesn't mean it can't work if you do things in a different order. Don't get married just because you already have kids and you think that's what Christianity says you should do. That's not a reason to get married.

Don't get married because he has a deadline. That's not going to ensure the two of you have a strong enough commitment.

What you really need to do is think long and hard about your relationship. Is this what you want? Do you see it lasting? Are you ready and willing to work hard when things aren't easy? Is he?

Don't get married ... until you know it's the right decision for both of you.

I understand your concerns, I've dated the same man for four years (not living together and and I'm no where near marriage) - but I won't have any more children either.

I'm assuming you both live together - so basically you all are living a 'married' life including the children. I believe you should really look within yourself and your convictions - what you believe and feel are very important and then decide if you are willing to compromise. What would your feelings/actions be afterwards? Will you feel resentment later? I'm guessing your thoughts are - if he's waited this long, what is another year or half year? Maybe it's because you have children together that he feels it should be done sooner than later. Sometimes, although you have the commitment, we want to solidify it with serious action - like marriage.

Trust and communication are necessary with all relationships; although you've survived divorce, that should not stop you from trying again - you share children and if it all falls apart - you will still have legal battles. (Is that really another reason to include or maybe an excuse?)

I think you both should attend premarital counseling (not necessarily in a religious place, but helpful too) - work on the issues past and present. Make a plan - like a goal/reward for working it out with counseling and then have the wedding that will ultimately lead to the happy and healthy marriage you both want. Just my two cents - seek deeper to what makes you feel happy, safe, and loved.

Here are my thoughts, L.. I hope they don't come across as unkind as I do not intend for them to be.

Whether or not you marry, you are always going to be legally tied to your boyfriend, at least until the children reach the age of majority. Whether or not you stay together as a couple, they are your children together, and therefore, you both have legal obligations to those children, regardless of your marital status.

Please don't confuse "wedding" with "marriage." A wedding is a one-day event. Certainly, it's a meaningful one, but no matter how big and beautiful, a wedding doesn't make a marriage.

Sounds like you have plans for your dream wedding ("If I am going to have a wedding, I want it to be better than my last"), but what about your relationship? Your partnership? Your commitment?

You have doubts about this relationship, fears that the changes he's made won't last, and problems that have yet to be resolved from your own description. Why not seek some professional help here before you start making wedding dates?

You would be wise to trust your instincts. Something inside is telling you that this isn't right. Listen to that inner voice. You've got a lot going on with one child and a new baby on the way, but you owe it to yourself, to your boyfriend, and especially to your children to get this straight. Get some help so you can be clear about what you want and whether this relationship truly fits into that picture.

I wish you the best with this.

J. F.

I think you don't know the mistakes that were made by both parties that led to your previous divorce.

Until you have learned from these mistakes, learned to prevent these mistakes, and have a better idea who YOU are in a relationship, you are not ready to get married.

Put the wedding on hold and do some learning about yourself, communication, and committed relationships.

It is not about the ring and the knee.

Congratulations on your baby! All babies are a blessings! This is a very important time to pray. Praying not only for your children but also about the decision of marriage. Marriage is not something that was invented like a computer or a Ford car that we now pick and choose one or the other and toss it a side when we are finished and ready for a new model.

Marriage is a sacred and Holy union between a man, woman and God, that God created for us to be closer to Him. Pray and ask God what he desires for you and this man? Ask the Lord if it is God's plan for you to be married to this man.

Here is a MP3 or CD that may help you in discerning God's will in your relationship: http://www.lighthousecatholicmedia.org/store/title/dating...

May God bless you and your family!

Blessings,
T.

If it is just about 4/6 months difference then see if you can both find some compromise. I certainly would not insist he get on one knee first, that sounds petty. If you are unsure, then suggest you guys get some counseling to help you figure out your issues and see if you want to be together moving forward.

I never got a proper proposal from my husband either, and I can tell you after 10 years of marriage it is still an issue for me (stupid or not). We were supposed to renew our vows at 10 years, but I told him I wasn't planning anything until he asked me...it didn't happen. This doesn't mean we aren't happily married, but it is still something that bothers me.

I would NOT jump in to a marriage with this man. It sounds like you both want it, but the timing is off. If he wants it so bad so soon, why not ask you like you want? If he isn't asking you like you want and you feel like it's work, why are you staying? I am also a firm believer in getting married because you are in love, NOT just because you have kids.

I think counseling would be good for you all to work out some of the things preventing you all from moving forward.