5 Yr Old Doesn't Hear Choices and Just Flips Out.

you are 'sticking to the consequences' but you didn't stick to the deal you made him earlier. it may be a small thing to you, but that sort of thing is HUGE to a kid.
follow through works both ways.
khairete
S.

Honestly, it seems like he did well at Grandmas. He probably felt like he should get to play with his trains for that. My guy wont mentionthe reward either, but he knows it is supposed to be coming. I really try to follow through on my end so that he knows that i will do what i say if he will do what he says!

Tough situation for you both. Let me give you what I think might well be your child's viewpoint. He wants something; you divert him with a promise that he can have it later if he cooperates. So he cooperates. Bedtimes being what they are (the end of the playday), he suddenly recalls your promise. He kept his side of it, and now wants you to keep yours. You say no, and his fuse blows.

Once the fuse blows, the ability to listen is seriously diminished. Even adults don't always hear so well when they are frustrated, confounded, or outraged.

Because you're a responsible parent and are looking out for his health, it's really not a choice to let him stay up and play. But that's your need, not his, as he experiences it. He's not at all open to the suggestion or demand that "HE needs to" calm down or talk to you respectfully. His needs are truly that he be heard respectfully, and helped past his sudden disappointment (which may be all the worse now that he's tired after a busy day). So your needs are at odds.

Rather that saying things that suggest his desires are out of line and he shouldn't be upset, kids do much better if they hear something like, "You know what, sweetheart, I blew it. I promised you time to play with your trains after Grandma's, and we both forgot, didn't we. I'm so sorry – what a disappointment for you. I'll tell you what. I need us both to get a good night's sleep now, and I will personally get out your trains for you tomorrow right after breakfast. Hey, I have an idea. Let's put Thomas up here right beside your bed so we'll BOTH remember in the morning."

With this sort of empathy and creative problem solving, your child feels assured that his needs, which to him are entirely legitimate, are respected and honored, even if they can't happen right now. This is a completely different experience, from his point of view, than being told what he needs. He may still fuss or cry, but is not likely to feel the total sense of outrage, injustice, and bitter disappointment that he probably experienced.

One of the things I do all the time with my 5yo grandson is to find a "yes" message instead of a no. "Yes, you can do that right after you get dressed." "How about we get this mess cleaned up, and then you'll have even more fun playing with ____." "Yes, I'd like some chocolate chips, too. Let's set out three for each of us, and that will be our dessert after we eat some real food." It makes a world of difference for him, and he tends to cooperate eagerly.

I'd like to suggest the most brilliant parenting resource ever: How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk, by Faber and Mazlish. I've used their sensible techniques for years with my grandson, and know quite a few other young families who have terrific results with this book, too. You will wonder how you made it this far without it.

He kept his end of the deal and wants you to keep yours. He needs to be able to trust that you will follow through on what you say. I would have let him play trains for a little while. It sounds like he DID make the connection between behavior A and B and you did not reward him with B. Yes, you have to stick to consequences, but also rewards. He sounds like he is very smart (and has a great memory!).

Sorry, but you did not keep your part of the deal, even if it was bed time.
He became upset, because you fudged on the deal and changed the rules.

I would have said, "ok you can play for 5 minutes".. or 10 minutes.. then I would have set a timer. Then in the morning told him you were sorry you had forgotten your promise from yesterday. In the future have him remind you about your "deals" of the day, .

I used to do this with our daughter and she was great about taking ownership of helping me remember.. If she forgot to remind me, she was ok with that because we always talked about mistakes, and forgetting and that it was ok. That even grown ups make mistakes and forget..

I think he sounds pretty awesome. He has a very cut and dry way of thinking right now.. It will change eventually, but it shows how amazingly bright he is.

So you told him that if he is good he can play trains. Then when he remembered you totally went back on your promise. Sorry, but that is what happened. Then you are mad that he remembers this and he feels betrayed. Why couldn't he have played for 5 or 10 minutes before bed? Was he really being rude or just calling you out?

Re-read your very last paragraph. Now insert " waiting to do trains and behaving at Grandma's" for "behavior A", and "play later" with "get him what he wants".

He absolutely understands the connections between his actions and the consequences of those actions. Sounds like you forgot them.
Sorry.

He just isn't old enough to be able to apply the logic that it is too late in the day, so we have compromise. You need to either give him what you promised, and be careful what you promise in the future. He won't trust your promises about this sort of thing in the future if you don't.

Your words: "And he never makes the connection that behaviour 'A' will get him what he wants and behaviour 'B' will not. And no, I'm not being a wuss or unclear and I stick to the consequences." You want to stick to consequences, BUT you have to stick to what you promise (ie. train play) as well.

He DID make the connection, and the connection is that YOU are not following through. He DID behaviour A and did not get what he was promised, so he melted down. He might have been rude, but you didn't follow through.

In a situation like this, it might have been better to let him play for 5-10 minutes before bedtime so that you could follow through with what you told him. Tweak the routine. It's ok to give a little, especially in a situation like this. It's not about control, it's about teaching him about life. Having control in this situation and not following through/apologizing for forgetting doesn't teach him what you want.

Well, not for nothing Mom, but you did tell him that he could play with his trains "later." Just because he didn't ask "later" that doesn't mean that your promise was null and void. You didn't follow through. If someone had done the same thing to you how would you have felt? Maybe you would have sucked it up, but you're an adult with some impulse control and you still would have been super pissed off that someone you love and trusted didn't follow through with letting you do something that you'd been looking forward to all day and been patient about. He doesn't have that same impulse control or ability to cover his emotions.

So all of the negative descriptions you made about your son in your question? Yeah, sorry, but those don't fly with me. He was a rightfully disappointed little boy and you were in the wrong. He was behaving appropriately considering the circumstances. Like a disappointed small child whose Mommy broke a promise and could have given him a few minutes playing with his trains.

He's at the right age to learn about compromise but you have to live up to your end of the bargain too.

Consequences aren't tough enough if he's still doing it. Kids will demand things like an escalating broken record if you don't make them understand they aren't allowed to keep asking once you say no. "I said no once. If you ask again you will get a consequence." Mean it. Sounds harsh, but that's SUPER hard to nip, you can't dink around. My three year old is trying that right now. My 5 year old tried it at around 3. He's way old enough not to do that if you're firm.
As kids, we always knew it was unheard of to keep demanding something once the parents said no. UNHEARD of.
It's not about getting what he wants or not, it's about having a consequence he wants to avoid or not.
But I agree, you gotta let him play if you said you would. Even if it's just for a few minutes.
Although, if he's using the train demands as a pre-bed tantrum, it's not out of line to say he can't play with them because he's being rude and give him a consequence for the fit. The most important thing is to teach him not to make rude demands.

Young kids, have no concept of "time" or how much time elapsed.
Thus, what to you may seem like hours of time elapsed between one choice or the other, to him, a child... it seems like just seconds ago.
The 'now' is 'now.'

The word "later" also, to kids, does not make sense. Because they have no tangible concept of time nor time elapsed. So 'later' to them, may mean 'now.' Because, it is, later.

Maybe use an egg-timer type thing for him. Wind it up for a certain time and once it chimes... then that is the 'time' for ending something or for starting something.

Teach him that everything, goes "full circle." ie: that there is a 'begin' time and an 'ending time' to everything.

Again, use an egg-timer for him. To display this concept. Tangibly.

Does he go to school? How is he there with the routines?

Then, the other option is, instead of telling him "no" to everything... or to that activity... tell him "Okay, we need to compromise..." (and teach him what compromise means. I taught my daughter that word from 2 years old, for example). Then, after you tell him "okay we need to compromise...." tell him "You can play for 10- minutes... .when the egg-timer goes Ding, then it is time to stop. Then we get ready for bed."
Thus, "You" are compromising (and teaching him how to do that, by your actions), and also he will hopefully gain 'skills' in compromising too. BOTH of you in other words, have "10 minutes..." to play/get things ready... for bed. Then when the egg-timer dings, then you BOTH get ready... you cuing him and transitioning him.

To me, he needs help with compromising.. and "transitioning" to things/the next activity/then ending of an activity and then to go to another, activity. Whether that is bedtime or to go someplace or leave someplace.

In other words, you are also then giving him a Head's-Up... on things/what to expect/and what will come next.

That works for my kids... who are 4 and 8 years old.

It is NOT only about giving choices... (young kids need help with choices too. They do NOT have, articulate 'skills' for deductive reasoning, yet). BUT... about teaching them "compromising" and you too... and also about how everything goes "Full-circle." With a beginning and an ending. So you need to teach him those concepts too... NOT only about "choices."

I would have, let him play with his trains. For a set amount of time.. and per the egg-timer.. and per compromising.
He kept his end of the deal.

You also have to keep in mind, the brain development of a 5 year old. The human brain is not fully developed, until 26 years old. So, parental expectations of a child, may not be congruent with a child's physiological/emotional development. Hence, them not having total 100% skills... in making the connection between behavior "A" and behavior "B."
And, "Skills" in "deductive reasoning"... is NOT fully developed nor even formed, yet, in a 5 year old.
Even some adults do not have those skills.

"Expectations" between a parent and a child.. are often what causes conflicts. Because it is not congruent with a child's development or ability, nor understanding.
So, be aware of your "expectations" too.

all the best,
Susan

He sounds just really strong-willed to me, and with strong-willed kids, you just have to be stronger than them. They are very persistent about testing boundaries and don't give up easily. Stick with a consequence that works and don't waver. State from the beginning what your expectations are and what will happen if he chooses not to cooperate. Don't sound like what you are asking him to do is an option ("Time to get ready for bed, okay?"). Praise him for cooperating and recognize when he is being helpful. I recently read a book called "Disciplining Your Strong-Willed Child" by Robert MacKenzie and found it to be very helpful. My daughter is 3.5 and is much the same way. I have to be very clear with her what will happen if she decides to give me a hard time, and if she is going to be doing something fun, but only has a limited amount of time to do it, I let her know she will get to do X for 10 minutes, and then it's time to be done - no arguing.

Maybe what I would have done was reward him for cooperating earlier by letting him play trains for 15 minutes before going to bed. To me, a 15 minute delay on bedtime on a weekend is not a big deal, especially if you allow it as a reward for being good for going out earlier.

I think he was just dealing with a HUGE disappointment and it just happened to be at bedtime. If he was dealing with it at bedtime, then he was probably a little tired and cranky anyway. No, he shouldn't speak to you or anyone disrespectfully but trying to teach him that right at bedtime maybe wasn't the best time.

I would have stuck to my guns but would have given him a little hope too - "You have been great waiting all day. I'm sorry we both forgot I said you can play w/your trains and now its too late. no, you can't play w/your trains right now, but you sure can play with them right after bfast" (or insert the first available time the next day he can play).

Kids usually don't forget things they really want. Its normal - I promise. All kids do that. I understand your point that whether he gets his way or not he still needs to speak respectfully. But its normal - once they have their minds stuck on something they want, they won't forget it. He needs patience and understanding from you as he's learning this....but it shouldn't be right before bed.

Let it go for now. In the morning, before he plays w/his trains, talk to him about his behavior. Tell him it was unappropriate for him to talk to you like that and then give him 2 consequences for doing so. don't take train time away...give him the choices, for example, of either not playing w/2 trains or 5 mins in timeout before he plays. (or something like that).

simple and easy solution - put up a dry erase board and when something like this comes up you say, "hey, let's write that on the board to do later" then you can check the board and say, "ok, X is happening in 30 minutes, you wrote trains on the board, now's your chance to do it if you want"

My son does this too, what we do with him, 4 (w/adhd) is when this starts up he has to have quiet time until he is ready to listen to his options (basically he goes to his room until he is calm sometimes I help him calm down) ... when he starts up whining again when we run over the options again same process until he hears it ... my theory is that if he is not calm enough to actually hear you then what is the point of talking to him?

WOW! A lot of moms are pretty stern with you! I see what they are all saying, but I know sometimes there just isnt enough time in the day. Yes...you said he could if he was good. So I would have let him play, but i would've explained that it was late and WE were so busy WE forgot; so play for just a couple of minutes then you can play tomorrow. Yes, it's important to stick to your word (for you & your son), but the art of compromise is also very important. As well as teaching your son that he doesnt have to get upset when things dont go according to plan, because you can always make a new plan (ex "you only have 5 minutes tonight, but you can play with your trains all afternoon tomorrow." or "we ran out of time tonight! Why dont you set up your trains so they will be all ready for tomorrow!") Good Luck! And Moms: ease up! Its all a work in progress!

In his mind, you promised him Thomas playtime for behaving and now you are not honoring that promise. At any age we all feel this disappointment. It's good to consciously make time to fullfill promises. Would ten minutes of play really have hindered bedtime?

If he starts associating his behavior with unfullfilled rewards then you may have bigger issues down the road. In his mind it might become..Why behave?

This particular situation seems a bit unfair to me. Your son forgot about the trains until later or else just does not know exactly what later is, so he did not mention it until suddenly it was the end of the day and he did not get his reward for doing what you asked him to do. You, on the other hand, did not forget the trains and the deal, but never mentioned it to him at all. If everyone had forgot that would be different, but you were aware seeming to wait for him to bring it up when you could have, especially at the right moment after being at grandma's and he had behaved well. He actually earned this according to your criteria, so you should have made sure to deliver.