Current Kerfluffle, How It Started and Why?

I'm with you 100%. You are a wise lady, and I have tons of respect for you.

There is a clique here that has a tone of exclusion and down right meanness. Years ago tons of questions got asked daily, now we might get as many in a week. A philosophy of truth saying without regard for respect and kindness has been cultivated here, and it's time for wisdom to guide truth saying. Thanks for always showing us this M.!

What I really want to know is what the heck Dandy Lion thinks about all of this???!!!! lol

M., you know me. For real. You know I usually love and respect your advice and generally things that you suggest to people in your calm, measured 'perhaps you could see it like this' perspective.

I think what many of us are asking for is a dialogue with the new mods. No, not to be 'told' what to do or how to express ourselves, but a real "hey, you give a little, we give a little" back and forth.

When posts are being disappeared without prior warning, that is not respectful, nor would I guess that this is the way the mods would like to be treated. It was previously the case, as others have mentioned, that posters whose responses were deemed inappropriate were first notified prior to their entire answer disappearing. Now they are yanked with no discussion.

When the regulars became up in arms a few days ago, the only response we received was a reiteration of 'the rules'. Nothing more. No other acknowledgment. When an group, en masse, raises the same concern to a person in a position of power, and when all they get back is the sound of crickets, nothing more to even acknowledge that there is something disrespectful to the people it affects---- when the mods are not even modeling the behavior they expect from us--- there is a sense of feeling diminished and dissatisfaction which comes from not feeling 'heard'.

So, while the Admin is expecting everyone to be 'nice' (I say that with quotes, because I have my own misgivings as to what constitutes 'nice' behavior in regard to what the mods are expecting, which is rank and file, fall in and only say things which *might not* hurt other people...... even when the person griping about us is a crybully who strikes out and can't handle any push back), they are not actually *listening* themselves.

I personally don't find the guidelines horrible. What I find horrible is the arbitrary removal of posts someone else decides is problematic, for whatever reason. Consider it like a garden. If I plant a few things outside and my husband came along, decided that plant might be a problem, pulled my plant out of the ground and threw it away (he's too smart for that!), I'd be livid. However, if he said "Hey, I don't think that's going to work right there, this is why...." then *I have options*. I can move the plant, I can realize it doesn't work in our garden and pass it along to a friend, I can maybe prune the plant back and shape it so it works in harmony with the rest of what's out there. Maybe the mods don't understand the sense of ownership which comes from taking the time to answer and type out a response. I mean, I get it. Let me stretch this analogy just a wee bit further: Admin doesn't want thorns in their garden. Okay. No thorns. That said, do you know that plum trees, apple trees, and pear trees all can have thorns? They all descend from the prunus (rose) family. Roses have thorns. So, no thorns= diminished variety of fruit and beauty. I'll leave it at that.

I really felt like it came down to free speech. Either some people were offended by the answers given so they complained to get those responses removed or the moderators decided they were inappropriate and removed them.

I have read plenty of questions and answers that I find offensive, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I just pass over them. I have also seen many responses to certain questions where people gang up on the person asking because they just don't agree or feel they need to push their beliefs on others. Some don't even answer the question they just refer to the poster as being stupid or or something to that effect.

I think if a post or answer is an obvious troll it should be removed. Sometimes its hard to tell if it is a serious person of not, but I think we learned with one of the posters (that hasn't been on in a while,daisy or something like that, I can't remember her name) that we shouldn't judge.

Our current society saddens me that so many are so easily offended. I see it all too often not just here but everywhere.

How will the future generations function if they can't handle hearing or seeing things they find offensive?

I agree with your "SWH" M., and I'm glad you said it. I told the moderators what I think, and I agree with you about the clique/ownership attitude that is pervasive, far more than in the old days. I think there was a bit of a "power vacuum" when the old moderators weren't quick enough on the troll posts or the spam or the really nasty stuff. So what started out as a well-intentioned, member-driven attitude to take care of the site morphed over time into a "go away" attitude for every new post that wasn't detailed or well explained. In fact, some of the long-time members are blasted by other long-timers as being stupid with comments like "Why don't you admit your mistake?" If a new poster comes on and sees this nonsense, she'll just say, "Who needs this nasty, catty nonsense?"

I think the male moderators have made some unfortunate choices of words though, and that set members off. It came across as patronizing and that got some people's backs up. There's a perception (whether it's accurate or not) that differences of opinion will be removed, and too many answers of the same type will be removed. Some members bristled at that, because if a question comes on and 25 people say "Your man is abusive and you need to leave" (for example), that's more powerful to the recipient than 1 person saying it and getting 24 flowers.

I think people here still need to get used to vigilant moderators, and I've seen some suggestions that there should be some women in that job as well. I think that's a good idea.

What I told the moderators is that there should be a way to notify the original poster when someone edits their answer. So if I answer a question and then a) think of something additional, b) read another answer or the SWH and change my advice or c) think I was too harsh and decide to apologize, there's NO way the poster will know unless she decides to go back and read all 25 responses in their entirety. I think that ought to be a simple technical fix - and if it's not simple, it's important enough to work at.

i'm not sure how to answer this, M.. it's very rambly and all over the place, and it's hard to follow what point you're trying to make, if any.
but i'll give 'er a whirl.

no, i don't think it has anything to do with the old '3 complaint rule.' the new mods and owners haven't mentioned anything about it.

it wasn't this S. being referenced, it was suzi. she's generally far nicer than i. :)

why should we care how someone asks or answers a question? i don't know where to go with that. if we didn't care about the question or answers, why would we be here? as you say, it's not our problem, it's the moderators' problem, but if they're pulling our responses and chastising us, they're making it our problem, no?

yes, there are rules for both askers and answerers. the rules have been and should be no expletives and no ad hominems. beyond that, respect is in the eye of the beholder.

yes, the manner in which the mods respond has changed. that's what prompted this, M..
you can view it as 'them against us' if you choose, but for many of us it was a justifiable and necessary pushback to being infantalized.

yes, more information about how the mods make decisions is very helpful and they've been good about that. and yes we can and do sometimes disagree and need to let them know that. yes, we're willing to respect the moderators and know they respect us. why is that a question?

i'm a little taken aback that without having seen the pulled answer you're taking it on yourself to chastise us. if you actually read the thread you'll see the answer, and if you read the responses your question 'why are so many upset? will be amply answered.

'can we agree that posts should be respectful of everyone?' makes the same assumptions of 'respect' that started the entire 'kerfuffle.' we don't all share a monochrome tone, M.. and sometimes a sharp retort is exactly called for. expletives and ad hominems, no.

i think we've done fine with minimal 'structure and guidance.' it would seem you join the mods in feeling as if we need lots of rules and guidelines in order to make us behave.
i do not agree.

your final sentence is both incorrect and dismissive. many who wanted more moderations vis a vis trolls and ads are now unhappy with tone being policed, yes. but dismissing the nuances of the situation with your overly simplistic framing of the issue is as paternalistic as the responses over the pulled post.

i'm disappointed.
khairete
S.

I haven't been much following this latest kerfuffle. I did see the original post and many of the original answers to it. I only skimmed the moderators' comments. I'm not really invested much to comment either way, though I will say it's a plus to see moderators more involved than they have been in the recent past. For a while this site seemed to be running on autopilot and it showed in the dwindling posts. If people feel the moderators are overreaching a bit, then it's fine to let them know that so perhaps they will adjust some things on their side.

The one trend I have noticed in the past one or two years is that people are very quick to declare Troll on certain posts. Sometimes there's no question they're right, but a few times I've felt they've yelled Troll on someone who was posting a legitimate (although perhaps a bit, ahem, dim) question. I don't know about anyone else, but if I posted a sincere question and had people jumping on it declaring troll right away I'd feel pretty offended.

When I see a question that's an obvious troll, I just ignore it. Even if I think it's borderline, I just ignore it. The worst would be someone asking for real advice and getting turned off because people are jumping all over themselves to declare "troll!"

That said, I have no idea whether the head injury question was real or not. I do have a friend who is a pediatrician and she gets more calls from acquaintances asking just this kind of question, even though she's not their child's doctor. It would seem obvious to me that you take the child to the ER right away, but not everyone seems to know that.

I think the concern was answers being pulled without knowing. For me I've thought the Post button wasn't working and bothered re-writing my entire reply again. So I think if they send us a message letting us know that would be helpful.

This question was one of the most serious health related questions in a long time. We moms are programmed to be protective of all kids. If it's not real - don't waste our time. If it is serious, then get going to ER. We react that way when a kid could be in danger. And we get pissed if it's someone just jerking our chain.

I don't know if the moderators are dads. I know parents take this stuff seriously. If it was just a cut or a bump the answers would not have been so heated. So that has to be taken into consideration.

http://www.mamapedia.com/questions/18216413324340690945

M., if you haven't read the posts on the above thread, go ahead and read through this. And go back to the original one and read Mike's post.

I actually don't feel that the old members "control" the site. Instead, I think that we (and I include you here) make it so the site continues. And I don't see it as a clique, either. I see women who make a difference. That's the reason I've stuck with it, even with some really awful people who come on here sometimes.

But for the minority of awful people, there a so many wonderful ones (like you!)

That said, just because the moderators are trying to actually moderate, it's like they are interjecting what THEY want to see in very subjective terms. And I DO see it as an issue of men vs women. Sorry, but I do. "Play nice" and all of that. Mike's remarks were very condescending, in my view and him showing up in a thread was a poor decision on MP's part, again, in my view. (And in a lot of other people's view.) Watching them leave flaming stuff, calling people out and yelling at them, and obvious troll posts that they don't "get" as troll posts, and then subjectively pulling tone just shows me how inconsistent they are. So, obviously, I see it a bit differently than you do. I DO agree that they don't write in defensive diatribes like that last one that everyone was so upset with...

Anyway, I do understand why people are upset. I adore a lot of the women here, but I just roll my eyes at a thread having "scolding" like that (including a thread I didn't write on, like that one you were asking about.)

Hi M., Some people are upset because they feel that the moderator over stepped his position by removing some posts. The moderator stated he removed the posts because they were mean-spirited and hostile. It is tricky because these measures are so subjective. Some of the moms expressed concern that the male moderators are trying to overly control the dialogue between women by telling them to behave.

On page 2 of the questions and answers list, you'll find the head injury post (Jan 21). Then two above that you'll find a question (Jan 22) from Suzi F., whose answer was pulled without any notice or opportunities to edit, plus the attendant discussion, in which it came out that it had happened to quite a few people. Then on page 1 you'll find an announcement from one of the moderators (DougatGetIt) framed as a question about why some answers are pulled (including a link to the new guidelines for answers, such that they are), and the attendant discussion. Reading all that should get you up to speed, and may give you a fuller picture of why people are bothered by the way this was handled. I hope that's helpful, M..

Not my circus not my monkeys is my favorite saying. I use it all the time when people try to rope me into things that don't really involve me.At first they look at you like 'come on and help me' but after the second or third time it comes up they stop asking.

Geez, I take an internet break for a while and look what I come back to.

Here's the post... http://www.mamapedia.com/questions/3811973116780150785